Prayers and hope on a dark day
Posted by Matt Yonke on Thursday, October 2nd, 2008
Today, October 2, 2008, is the first anniversary of the day that Planned Parenthood Aurora first opened its doors. After months of protest, petitioning government, and constant prayer, that was a dark day for Fox Valley's pro-life community.
And while today was a day of mourning for the babies who have lost their lives at the Abortion Fortress and their hurting mothers, the mood of the fifty pro-lifers who gave their lunch hour to pray at the vigil site was also full of hope.
Noon, the "sixth hour" by the old Hebrew reckoning, was the hour at which Christ was crucified. Linking the sacrifice of the Son of God on the cross with the sacrifice of His little ones at the abortuary, we joined in the prayer of the Sixth Hour of the Byzantine Liturgy of the Hours, comprising several psalms and prayers invoking the crucifixion.
Father Frederick Peterson of St. George Church in Aurora led the prayers, assisted by me and Eric Scheidler, who are cantors at St. George. Candles, incense and an icon of the crucifixion linked the service with our ancient Christian roots.
The faithful were were encouraged by the words of the Psalmist with his constant reminders that God is on the side of the Just, that He will not overlook evil, and that He is our refuge in difficult times. Though Planned Parenthood may have won a battle a year ago, the war belongs to our God.
Though a thousand may be falling at your side, and ten thousand at your right no harm will come to you. But you with your eyes shall observe and see the retribution of the wicked.
—Psalm 90
After the prayer, Eric Scheidler offered some thoughts about answering God's call to prayer and activism at Planned Parenthood, and the necessity sharing that invitation with others, especially during these 40 Days for Life. In closing, the crowd sang a verse of the song that has become such a consolation over the past year, "Amazing Grace".
The commemoration encapsulated the tone of this first year of spiritual battle at Planned Parenthood: peaceful, solemn prayer, coupled with an unwavering commitment to shut down the "Abortion Fortress" once and for all.
I am happy to see that the HEALTH CARE FACILITY is celebrating its one year anniversary. I personally know of many, many women who have benefited from its existence. Low cost birth control, health screenings and STI testing are needed in the community. The care and concern shown to the patients is tremendous AND appreciated.
October 3rd, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Not what the lady outside the clinic said to me the other day.
She was just there for her birth control and PP wouldn't give it to her. She didn't say whether the problem was economic or otherwise, but she was very grateful for the list of legitimate health centers in the area where she could get the service she was looking for.
Btw, speaking of PP and low cost birth control, have you seen this story? Seems a former PP official is alleging that PP knowingly overcharged the state of California for birth control to the tune of about $180,000,000. It'll be interesting to see how that story plays out.
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Matt, I find it pathetic that pro-abortion proponents justify the stealth operation of this organization coming into our community, by stating they are providing "healthcare". We have many organizations and have had them for years that help ALL the women in our community. Aunt Martha's Healthcare, VNA, Kane Co. Health Dept. and private practices who take Medicaid or sliding fee patients. We do NOT have a shortage of healthcare services for poor women. The ONLY reason PP came here was to provide "death services for the unborn of this community" and more medical risk to area women with abortion procedures. If they were so interested in providing healthcare they would not turn women away. I have heard of women being turned away for inability to pay PP after being referred there by proponents of PP, which is probably what the women who spoke to you encountered, Matt. Thank you for referring her elsewhere.
October 4th, 2008 at 12:00 am
Do you have any legitimate evidence of this? Something more than "I heard…"?
I have some college age friends who go there for birth control because it's the only place they can afford. Can you give me the names of other health care centers where they can purchase birth control pills for $10 per month?
October 4th, 2008 at 8:34 am
I've never been turned away from PP. I've receive my birth control from that very clinic and I've never seen anyone been treated with anything but respect.
What proof do you have, Matt, of your allegations that patients are turned away? What reasons were given by the clinic for turning them away?
October 4th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Or is that just a little story you made up, Matt?
Anyway, I thought you guys were against birth control anyway, since it leads to abortions. I've read many comments here to that effect.
October 4th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
No, Matt did not have to make it up, it is happening. 2 people were sent down to PP by a strong PP proponent, a college instructor, they were sent away for lack of funds. The instructor was so mad she told her class about it and said she didn't care if they were shut down. We know you won't believe it and don't really care because you believe their lies, you would kiss up to PP no matter what lies they tell. PP lies to you and everybody else, the city, the mayor, the aldermen, local newspapers, the judges, to teens on teenwire.com and takecaredownthere.org (Oh, they took that filthy website down. I wonder if that has anything to do with someone who has pledged allegiance to PP wants to get elected?). I won't waste my time arguing about it, life is too short and too precious. Oh, I forgot pro-choicers only believe the lives that mothers "choose to have" are precious, otherwise their unborn babies are disposable and should end up as medical waste at PP. Thanks Matt for your post. Continue all your good work. God bless you and all prolifers.
October 4th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Kel,
I couldn't make up the stuff that goes down at Planned Parenthood. It ranges from weird to downright evil, but trust me, I have no need to make up stories.
But, as to the woman in question, it was Tuesday, September 30 at about 12 p.m. Eric Scheidler and I had just finished praying behind Planned Parenthood and were waiting for the next person who was supposed to relieve us when a young African American woman came walking away from the clinic.
She asked if we knew the man who had been sidewalk counseling when she went in. We said we did and she said that she wanted us to thank him. She had come in for birth control and was turned away and was not happy at all about it. She was very grateful to the man who had given her a list of other area health centers.
She wasn't in the mood to chat so we didn't get the reason why she was turned away, but for one reason or another, she was and she was very displeased with the situation.
My only point in relating the story was to give one solid counter-example to Students glowing rhetoric about all the people PP helps.
Btw, I am personally opposed to the use of birth control, but I believe it to be a sin, not a crime. Sort of like getting drunk. I don't believe it's right to get drunk and I would encourage anyone who does so on a regular basis to cut it out. It's not good for you or for society. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna try to close down the liquor store.
October 4th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Yikes! Good grief! I feel all of my analogies are "off the mark", but hopefully your's aren't! "You aren't going to close down the liquor store" but that IS our intention isn't? (namely PP!). PLEASE delete this comment after reading!!!
October 4th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
But then by giving this woman a list of other birth control providers be the same as giving an alcoholic a list of other bars in the area after they had been turned away at one? Wouldn't that just make you an enabler??
October 4th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
getting drunk is a ABUSE of a amoral substance!
birth control is wrong INTRINSICLY!
October 4th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
"abortion is considered a sin, but not a crime", therefore we don't try to close down the abortuary???
October 4th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
So bottom line….you have no idea why she was turned away! Could it be that she didn't want a pelvic exam? Did she want some method of BC unavailable at the clinic at the time? Was it medically unadviseable for her to be on birth control? Seems there are a lot of answered questions here.
The problem is that you want to demonize PP regardless of what they do.
October 5th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Excellent points!
October 5th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
"demonizing PP":
If one believes bc is wrong and PP is all about bc, then the hows, etc. of bc matters not, I would think.
—————————————————–
"excellent points"
This refers to the anology; and if the anology "falls short", I would think we could come up with even more "excellent points"! (all of which are "beside the point" so too speak)
October 5th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Short answer for Kel, maybe it's more akin to giving someone going into a crack house a list of treatment centers. Sure, some of those treatments are going to be things I'm not 100% behind, but at least they're not going to the crack house.
Giving a list of local medical facilities, some of which provide birth control is at least pointing women away from places that provide abortion, and where their money, whatever it is spent on, will go to an abortion providing business.
Like I said, using birth control is something I believe is immoral, but it's the individual's choice to make. Priority number one is helping women see that there are better choices to make than supporting Planned Parenthood. Slightly lower down the list is helping women realize that there are better choices to make than using artificial birth control.
You have to remember that, even though you disagree with us, what we believe is happening at Planned Parenthood is nothing short of genocide. Stopping that is the paramount goal. Triage, while unfortunate, has to take place.
October 5th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
WOW!….from my insignificant position….beautifully put and magnificently complete!
October 5th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Interesting video:
Click here: http://www.catholicvote.com/
October 6th, 2008 at 12:06 am
"The problem is that you want to demonize PP regardless of what they do."
I think that PP has done a pretty good job of that already!
October 6th, 2008 at 6:48 am
If Planned Parenthood had done a good job of demonizing itself it would have already put itself out of business. Judging by the very full parking lot at my local PP almost every time I drive by, the exact opposite appears to be true.
October 6th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Sherrie, I think most of the people in Germany bought Hitler's lies that the death camps were good ideas to get rid of the "undesirables", he said if he got rid of the "parasite" Jews that were causing the problems for Germany it was going to be a better country. He had massive crowds flock to his parades and speeches. He was loved by Germans for the things he did to help his country. He justified that for the good of Germany only the "chosen ones" deserved to be born, he would get rid of poverty by getting rid of the "undesirables". The "unwanted and unchosen" unborn babies are parasites according PP, deserving a death sentence because their mother's cannot afford them or the time is inconvenient. How sick!!! 2 wrongs (or I should say 43 million aborted babies later) don't make it right. Does the good Hitler did for his fellow Germans make the slaughter of millions right. Don't buy the lies.
October 6th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Friend of Life:
I know that you guys love to compare Planned Parenthood to German Nazis, but I fail to see how your little story in any way addresses my comment.
I was responding to MB, who feels that PP demonizes themselves without any help. If that was the case they would not be doing such a brisk business. It seems to me that if PP is as evil as you guys think, they are actually doing the opposite of demonizing themselves.
October 6th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Yet you believe abortion is immoral, but don't want to leave it up to the individual.
October 6th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
AuroraResident,
The key distinction is the difference between a sin and a crime. Using artificial birth control is a sin. It's immoral, but people are free to use it. But abortion, since it is the taking of an innocent human life, is both a sin and a crime.
So while I'm content to let people choose things that are bad for them in some areas, when it comes to things like murder, that kind of leeway cannot be granted.
October 6th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
So while I'm content to let people choose things that are bad for them in some areas, when it comes to things like murder, that kind of leeway cannot be granted
But what makes you the authority on which things people can choose for themselves, and in which areas people need to follow Matt Yonke's moral compass? Who has granted you this power? Especially when not all pro-lifers even agree with you. Many find birth control as evil as abortion.
October 6th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
a Students for Life catches 2 Planned Parenthoods covering up statutory rape.
Mike
October 6th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Thanks for the info. Now Americans can put faces to the crime. This goes relatively unnoticed by the public. I'm glad your efforts will make them take a second look. The general consensus among pro-lifers is that Planned Parenthood kills for profit so any thing else that may serve their agenda becomes in their "propaganda" somehow justified. Criminals protecting criminals. Pro-Life Action League is maligned by them because they are successful in exposing the lies. Our fight is not a fight against ideologies it is a battle against principalities.
The Devil isn't just going to give up and go home–although we wish he would.
We've got the legions of angels,the saints,the B.V.M., the holy Trinity, and yes all of the members of the Body of Christ available to engage in a very real life and death spiritual battle with very real eternal consequences at stake. Praised be Jesus that these young adults have the bravado to expose the Devil's agent. They are our front lines people and as they say "out of the mouth of babes" comes the truth and the most formidable opposition to the Enemy. Keep up the good work. You are our hope for the future (Students For Life.)
October 6th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
When did abortion become a crime? Was Roe overturned while I was at work today?
Except abortion isn't murder. Murder is a legal construct to which abortion does not apply.
October 6th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Matt,
Some good points, but let's remeber why there is a PP in the first place. Margret Sanger and friends thought that minorities and uneducated whites where vermin and their populations needed to be kept under control. So she promoted birth control and abortion as a means of keeping the undesirables in check. She was a racist Nazi and believed in Eugenics. So when they give out the Maggie Award every year, it should make people sick.
PP in no different today. They build their "clinics" as close to as many schools as possible. In the state of IL, there are are least 6-7 achools within 3 miles of any PP. They are also located near heavily minority populations.
It wouldn't matter how much evidence was shown to prove PP is harmful, because the bottom line is that those who agree with PP do not see anything wrong with killing unborn children. Pro-Choicers don't believe that one is not a person until one is born, and that is sad.
October 6th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Tara,
Have you even been to the Planned Parenthood in Aurora? In a town as diverse as Aurora, Planned Parenthood built their clinic in the "whitest" area of town. Way across town from the areas with large minority populations and right up against the border of Naperville. Not many minorities in Naperville, are there?
Also, in a city as dense as aurora you would be hard-pressed to find a piece of property that isn't within 3 miles of several schools.
The "racist founder" argument is a feeble one, and one your cause is better off not dragging out. How many long-standing companies had founders that held racist, or sexist, beliefs?
By the way, your last sentence makes absolutely no sense.
October 6th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
The Aurora PP Abortuary was built in the same neighborhood as a prominent IL Now member. It was also set up to complement the PP Express set up in Naperville who hands out failed contraception to high school students. The Abortuary then cleans up by performing abortions on these women which significantly increases their Net Income.
Mike
October 6th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
How sad that you choose to generalize large numbers of people this way. You're pro-life, right? That must mean you support http://www.armyofgod.com and the killing of doctors, correct?
October 6th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
I don't know to whom you are referring, but wasn't it also built in the same neighborhood as Eric Scheidler? What's your point?
Why is it so impossible for many (most) of you to admit the good things that PP does?
October 6th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Do any of you that continue to harp on the Sanger argument drive Fords?
October 6th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Matt, Mike, Tara,
Which is it? Does PP build their facilities near "minority populations," as Tara claims? Or is she thinking of Church's Chicken? I mean, Planned Parenthood did have that PP Express in Naperville. Lots of minorities and "uneducated whites" there, right Tara? Or maybe they like to build near the homes of "prominent NOW members," as Mike purports?
Or maybe they don't take either of these issues into consideration when choosing a new location. Maybe they throw a dart at a map, or maybe they take a list of factors into consideration, such as property value, proximity to other health care clinics, land availability, etc, just like any.other.business. Ever think of that?
October 6th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
In America today, almost as many African-American children are aborted as are born.
A black baby is three times more likely to be murdered in the womb than a white baby.
Since 1973, abortion has reduced the black population by over 25 percent.
Twice as many African-Americans have died from abortion than have died from AIDS, accidents, violent crimes, cancer, and heart disease combined.
Every three days, more African-Americans are killed by abortion than have been killed by the Ku Klux Klan in its entire history.
Planned Parenthood operates the nation's largest chain of abortion clinics and almost 80 percent of its facilities are located in minority neighborhoods.
About 13 percent of American women are black, but they
submit to over 35 percent of the abortions.
What the Ku Klux Klan Could Only Dream About The Abortion Industry is Accomplishing.
October 6th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
I am LOL at the pro-aborts postings. Don't take the lightweights seriously pro-lifers. Since they spend so much time here instead of on a pro-abort blog remember their purpose is to disrupt and frustrate. It is never a problem for them to justfy dead unborn babies unless it happens to be them, (you see their mothers' already made a "choice" for life). By the way Hitler and his friend in idealogy, Margaret Sanger, are perfect analogies to PP, that is why they hate it so much. Keep up the good work and God bless you prolifers. Got to go.
October 6th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Did you ever think that maybe PP clinics are often located in minority neighborhoods because residents of those neighborhoods are often poor and may lack health insurance? Maybe they rely on clinics like Planned Parenthood for medical care because they can't afford to go anywhere else?
Sherrie is right, the Planned Parenthood in Aurora, which is the very clinic that this website's organization has chosen to target, is nowhere near a minority neighborhood. I don't know why that argument is always brought up here. Statistically, blacks may have more abortions than whites, but how does the Aurora PP have anything to do with that??
Mike, I'm unsure what you are trying to prove with your little snippets of information. You cite no sources and give no numbers. Could it be that there are more pregnancies each year to blacks than to whites? This would explain the higher number of abortions, as well as the fact that there are more infants born each year to black teens than to white teens.
October 6th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Kel and Sheri and Student,
Yes, I live near the Aurora clinic, and their own reasoning for building it in Aurora was because of the expanding population. The expanding populations in Aurora are Hispanic and African Americans. While Aurora is diverse, their target audience is the huge minority population. Actually there are many minortiy neighborhoods within 2 miles of PP. That is my point. Just head west on New York about 1.5 miles and there is a large neighborhood where Hispanics live. So, while it was built in a shopping center, their target audience remailn the same. A wolf is sill a wolf whether in a zoo or in the woods. It doesn't change because of location.
Have any of you spet any time there? I do and there is a large number of minority girls that go there. As well as many UNDERAGE teens, with there boyfriends. But that is a totally different problem with PP.
The PP Express was a funnel for the abortuary. Nothing more or less.
I stand by my statement that Pro Choicers do not believe that the unborn are human beings, and have intrinsic value, and deserve to be protected. The only babies that deserve protection are those who are born and wanted, Babies born alive during an abortion don't count either. Those babies don't deserve protection either.
I've had this diescussion with enough PCers. So if it seems I am generalizing it is because of what NARAL, PP, NOW and individual PCers state on a daily basis.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Yes, I volunteer on a semi-regular basis.
Yes, of course you are generalizing. It is beyond the comprehension of many of you that the PC community does have differing views. Are all of you in favor of murdering doctors? Are all of you members of Army of God like Student suggested? Are you all opposed to abortion in cases of rape or incest? Just as in the PL community, the PC community doesn't all agree on everything. However, I do realize it's much easier to be judgmental when lumping people into groups.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Student,
There are higher categories of law than those operating in the U.S. at this particular moment in time.
It was on the basis of that higher law that our understanding of human rights developed. No matter what governments decide at particular points in history, men are still endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, and it is a crime to violate those rights.
Unless you think rights can be invented out of whole cloth or granted and taken away by whatever despot happens to hold power this week. If that's the case that whole Declaration of Independence thing is a bunch of theistic gobbletygook.
I hope we both believe that human rights exist independent of any government granting them, because if we don't this conversation is pretty hopeless.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Here's something interesting:
http://video.suburbanchicagonews.com/media/au07courtdocuments.pdf
October 7th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Sherrie,
Murdering people whether born or unborn is still murder. Those who claim they are PLers and kill abortionists are NOT PLers. They are no better then an abortionist. I don't know any real PLer who thinks that murdering people is okay.
Again, you are still avoiding the issue. Do you or don't you belive that unborn children are human beings and deserve protection. That is the central issue.
October 7th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
You can either listen to the word of God, the author of all life, or choose to murder the innocent. It is as simple as that.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
I think it's fair to say that Sherrie believes that the unborn do not deserve legal protection. I think it's possible to believe that they are human but do not deserve legal protection. Indeed, I think the most honest pro-abortion rights people concede that (think Catherine Mackinnon or Camille Paglia). Pro-lifers should grant that many people believe that the unborn do not deserve legal protections. We're not going to convince everyone by defining the central issue. It's about winning a majority. Do you think that a baby who survives an abortion deserves protection? If so, there are certain candidates who you cannot under any circumstances vote for. Winning, rather than convincing everyone, is now the key.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
PP is around because people want them to be around, people support PP. PP has prevented abortions through education. Let me decide and being educated I never had to make this decision.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Until a fetus is able to live outside the womb, I believe that the woman's bodily autonomy trumps the fetus' life.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I think it's fair to say that Sherrie believes that the unborn do not deserve legal protection. I think it's possible to believe that they are human but do not deserve legal protection.
Yes John, I agree with this. I did not see your post until after I answered Tara.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Wow, really Sherrie?
That's a striking admission. What is it about the ability to live outside the womb that magically grants the child human rights?
October 8th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
It's about a choice that is mine and my Doctor's. I do not want you to make that choice for my by banning my right to choose. Very simple really. PP help greatly in education to prevent the need to choose.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
PP is considered "good" because of their educating?
Doesn't contraception stop pregnacy?
And natural sex cause pregnacy?
Again, PP is good because of it's education???
October 8th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
yee gosh….pregnacy s/b pregnancy!
October 8th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Matt,
I asked you some questions above that you never answered. When you answer those I'll consider answering your questions.
October 8th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Rewording #51 & #52 (sorry for the hastiness):
Isn't contraception the cause of pregnancy prevention (nothing to do with "education")?
And Isn't practiceing natural sex the cause of pregnancy (again, nothing to do with "education")?
October 8th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
If ALL PP did, was "educate" (even adnausuem) I'll bet you wouldn't even hear a peep, ever, from a pro-lifer!
October 8th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
PP IS NOT in Aurora because people wanted them. They are here because they LIED about who they were, SNUCK into town, PAID pay-to-play politics, bought out the Mayor, VIOLATED the zoning laws, used the APD and the city attorney to try to intimidate the citizens who stand up for the lives of innocent unborn babies. You can get all the information and contraception you need at the Kane Co. health dept., VNA, Aunt Martha's, etc and they have been providing these things for YEARS. They are here to make money by committing murder NO other reason. PP lies to you and everyone else.
October 8th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Sherrie,
I made no claims about PP's motives in their choice of Aurora, though I share some of the sentiments of the folks who did.
But, obviously, Aurora is a very ethnically diverse town, and PP is on the record being very proud about providing services to minorities. That's part of their whole ethos.
And frankly, I don't doubt that many of the people who work at PP Aurora have the best of intentions and truly want to help women and minorities and the underpriveleged.
The question is whether contraception and abortion at deep discounts are the things that are really going to help people.
So, do I think they have staff meetings where they laugh about all the minorities they're going to target? I doubt it. But they do seek to "serve" minority populations and, whatever their intentions, it is the firm belief of the pro-life community that the "services" they offer don't help people. They hurt.
October 8th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
But what makes you the authority on which things people can choose for themselves, and in which areas people need to follow Matt Yonke's moral compass? Who has granted you this power? Especially when not all pro-lifers even agree with you. Many find birth control as evil as abortion.
This was the question to which I was referring.
October 8th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Friend of Life,
Have you ever used the services of the VNA, Aunt Martha's or the Kane County Health Department?
October 8th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Ah, sorry Sherrie, I just took the first one I found.
That said, I'd point you to my response to Student in comment 41 for the sake of brevity.
That said, if I'm not the authority (which I'm not), and God's not the authority (which He is), and Natural Law and 2500 some odd years of the development of Western Law have nothing to say about it, what is the standard?
The answer seems to be (and feel free to correct me if I'm misreading you) the will of the people. Since abortion is legal right now in America, I should keep my nosy nose out of it. The people have spoken.
Well, apart from the fact that no more than 9 people in black robes have spoken (7 actually, two dissented), have the will of the people if you like, but know that she is a harsh mistress, and fickle.
The will of the people brought you Nazism, the communist revolution in Russia, legalized slavery, the subjugation of women, and any number of other atrocities authorized by the majority.
There must be something more than the majority of people who happen to be alive right now in America to dictate morality, right? If not, as Shakespeare put it, life is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
October 8th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Sherrie, I have worked for, have worked with, volunteered for and still work with some the organizations I listed, other healthcare organizations and community organizations for years on projects to help women, teens, children, babies and couples to have a healthier life. Have you done the same? I have friends who have used these organizations, most have had good experiences, but some bad. Have you used them yourself? They are working to improve their services all the time if you haven't used them recently. The only thing PP offers different is ABORTIONS- taking the lives of innocent unborn babies- (these places offer STD testing, cervical cancer screening, mammograms-VNA, contraception, treatment for STDs, cervical cancer treatment, BC pills, shots, IUDs, etc. with very few exceptions). No woman in Aurora HAS to go to PP for these services. I have had private healthcare practitioners tell me they take Medicaid and have sliding fees for women in difficult financial circumstances and have been doing this for years. We don't need PP's death camp here. PP lies to you and everyone else.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:32 am
But why do you consider abortion a crime and birth control a sin? It seems to me that, according to logic the anti-birth control brigade here brings to the table, they both cause the death of a child. Yet you say:
So while I'm content to let people choose things that are bad for them in some areas, when it comes to things like murder, that kind of leeway cannot be granted
So why are you content to only save some of the babies? Your logic makes no sense to me. I've read on this very blog that birth control is also murder. It seems to me that our friend Jerry Vilt feels that, if you or your wife is not currently pregnant, sitting here at your computer and not actively procreating is a form of abortion. I see no one here disagreeing with him.
If you consider abortion murder, and you want to work to convince the powers that be to change the law, go for it. You have every right. I believe, though, that if "the people" agreed with you, abortion would have been made illegal years ago, and the PP parking lot would be empty.
Oh, and also, Godwin's Law.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
You're right, no one has to go to PP for the serives you mention. If they want an abortion, however, PP is the only option in Aurora. So yes, since abortion IS legal, I would say we need PP and its services here.
I have indeed used the services of all the organizations you've listed. I would not take my dog to the VNA for treatment. The place is filthy, the staff (other than the Dr.s) is rude and condescending, and the decible level of the waiting room is off the charts. The KCHD does not offer all of the services you mentioned, and Aunt Martha's is unfortunately too small to handle the number of patients it sees. The waiting time for an appointment is way too long.
PP is clean, spacious and the staff is courtious and respectful.
And in case your'e wondering why I patronize these organizations, I am self employed and must pay for my own healthcare.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Re #62 (Sherrie):
Contraception is a "form" of abortion (because it aborts the reproductive process).
But if one does not contracept, somehow this is understood to mean I propose that one must ALWAYS BE PROCREATING! yikes!!!
October 9th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Sherrie,
I agree with you in that to be consistent, if one says he/she is against all abortions, he/she must also be against abortifacient contraceptives (e.g., oral contraceptives–the Pill–, IUDs, shots, implants). But this is a harder pill for society to swallow, since those currently using contraceptives have been brought up with societal approval, even idolization, of artificial birth control. Most people don't realize that hormonal contraceptives take the lives of the newly conceived. Those who find out after they've grown accustomed to their use find it difficult to change their behavior. Sin wouldn't be so attractive if it weren't so easy. Doing what's right is more difficult, requiring sacrifice and self-control.
For those seeking a moral way of regulating births, Natural Family Planning (NFP) is available. It relies on reading a woman's signs of fertility and using the infertile times for intercourse if you have serious reason to avoid pregnancy. Its use requires abstinence only, on average, 8-10 days/month. It is extremely effective (over 99%)–at least as effective as the Pill. And it doesn't cost anything to use.
Note that even NFP is not 100% effective. Only total abstinence is. That is why sexual intercourse belongs in marriage, where even an unexpected baby will have a stable family structure.
What we've lost sight of is the fact that children are a gift from God. We should welcome them, not see them as a burden. Even surprise gifts are to be treasured. They show us the world through new eyes, and call us to grow in ways not possible otherwise. They teach us true sacrifice.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
If you have been to the new VNA facilty I don't think you will see filth but a newly remodeled facilty that offers everything but abortions. Indeed, I see I am not going to change your mind about your love affair with PP, that is unfortunate. I would recommend to other women who don't love PP to seek out some of the private practices like Family Practices and Nurse Midwifrey services (they offer gyne care and birth control not just ob care) that offer all the services I listed in my previous post except abortions, ask if they have sliding fees, take Medicaid, etc. (like I said I have been told by some of them they would take more patients). Although the local Pregnancy Information Center will not refer for abortions they refer women to healthcare providers who take low income patients. You should also voice your complaints to the healthcare facilities that you have visited that have problems. All prolifers do not agree about the use of birth control, but we all agree that using PP is unfortunate because we stand for LIFE.
October 9th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Sherrie,
There is a very clear moral difference between what happens in abortion and what may happen with hormonal birth control.
The goal of abortion is to kill a child we know has been conceived. The goal of hormonal contraceptives is to prevent the child from being conceived.
Now, artificial contraception is wrong for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with its potentially abortafacient properties. See Pope Paul VI's encyclical Humanae Vitae for more on those reasons.
But there is a significant difference in moral severity between an act that seeks to kill a human being and an act that accidentally kills a human being. They cannot be said to be on the same level of moral culpability at all.
So while I feel that both artificial contraception and abortion are both grave moral evils, I do not see them to be morally equivalent at all.
If I did, I would be picketing Walgreens just as hard as I picket Planned Parenthood.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
re #67:
"an act that accidentally kills a human being….."
seems to me should be:
"an act that kills the process of creating a human being….."
the first, in my humble opinion, can be claimed to be simply "irrelavent".
October 10th, 2008 at 10:00 am
"creating" should be "generating" or "reproducing"…sorry
October 10th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Sherrie:
When were you at the VNA? Their new facility is spacious and impeccable, and my sister-in-law gave the place rave reviews when she used it for pediatric and gyne care while her husband was out of work.
Erin
October 10th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Kel says:
I've never been turned away from PP. I've receive my birth control from that very clinic and I've never seen anyone been treated with anything but respect.
What proof do you have, Matt, of your allegations that patients are turned away? What reasons were given by the clinic for turning them away?
****************
I'd be interested to know that as well. I was never turned away from PP without birth control when I came to get it. I paid a very low price for it, as I wasn't making much money at the time, and BC wasn't covered by my health insurance at the time either.
October 10th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Student says:
So bottom line….you have no idea why she was turned away! Could it be that she didn't want a pelvic exam? Did she want some method of BC unavailable at the clinic at the time? Was it medically unadviseable for her to be on birth control? Seems there are a lot of unanswered questions here.
The problem is that you want to demonize PP regardless of what they do.
*********************************
Exactly. Don't you love it when they make false or misleading statements like "a woman was turned away from PP" but then have NO explanation why? How convenient for them that "the woman was in no mood to talk," isn't it.
October 10th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Sherrie says:
If Planned Parenthood had done a good job of demonizing itself it would have already put itself out of business. Judging by the very full parking lot at my local PP almost every time I drive by, the exact opposite appears to be true.
**********************************
Which drives the anti-PPs bonkers, of course. The idea of all those "evil women" (in their minds only) being able to prevent those "consequences for their immoral actions" by getting birth control to prevent pregnancy and birth is more than some of them can handle. Problem for them, women CAN make the choice for themselves, without their "help."
October 10th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Student says:
>>The key distinction is the difference between a sin and a crime. Using artificial birth control is a sin. It's immoral, but people are free to use it. But abortion, since it is the taking of an innocent human life, is both a sin and a crime. <<
When did abortion become a crime? Was Roe overturned while I was at work today?
*******************************
I guess so, but I didn't get the memo. My dog must have eaten it. I knew it was a mistake to name him Satan.
October 10th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
KarenK says:
You can either listen to the word of God, the author of all life, or choose to murder the innocent. It is as simple as that.
***************************
No, it's really utter nonsense. Not everyone believes in your "god," so invoking the religious argument doesn't fly with me. We don't, thank goodness, live in a theocratic society where religion dominates government, so women can, if they choose, use contraception to prevent the burdens of unwanted pregnancy and birth. IF the BC fails, they can also choose to terminate the pregnancy or continue it. Approval of church hierarchies isn't needed or required, as it is THEIR decision to make.
October 10th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Sylvia says:
Sherrie,
I agree with you in that to be consistent, if one says he/she is against all abortions, he/she must also be against abortifacient contraceptives (e.g., oral contraceptives–the Pill–, IUDs, shots, implants). But this is a harder pill for society to swallow, since those currently using contraceptives have been brought up with societal approval, even idolization, of artificial birth control. Most people don't realize that hormonal contraceptives take the lives of the newly conceived. Those who find out after they've grown accustomed to their use find it difficult to change their behavior. Sin wouldn't be so attractive if it weren't so easy. Doing what's right is more difficult, requiring sacrifice and self-control.
For those seeking a moral way of regulating births, Natural Family Planning (NFP) is available. It relies on reading a woman's signs of fertility and using the infertile times for intercourse if you have serious reason to avoid pregnancy. Its use requires abstinence only, on average, 8-10 days/month. It is extremely effective (over 99%)–at least as effective as the Pill. And it doesn't cost anything to use.
**********************************
As far as I'm concerned, using reliable birth control is only a "sin" for hard-line religionists who want to control all sexual and reproductive choices of men and women. In other words, SEX CONTROL. That is precisely what the anti-contraception mentality is about, nothing more. And the church doesn't get to decide what MY morality is, another reason to be grateful for freedom FROM religion as well as freedom OF it.
As for NFP, you can HAVE it, I'll pass. I'll use my own method of BC, thank you, and thank goodness I can make my own choice. NFP is highly UNreliable, and there's old joke about it:
Q. What do you call a couple that only uses NFP as birth control?
A. Mom and Dad
Of course, there are also the "contraceptive sex acts," which avoid the unwanted burdens of pregnancy and birth entirely, as long as they don't lead to intercourse. You know, the sex acts the r.c.c. calls "sins" because they're all pleasure and no consequences.
October 10th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
^ that is a gross mischaracterization of Catholic teaching- I would encourage you to check out John Paul II's "Theology of the Body" for what the Church really believes.
October 10th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Judging from the overwhelming substantial differences between Ocean & Sylvia, I wonder if they are both on the same planet?
October 11th, 2008 at 6:12 am
Ocean, You said "it's about sex control", how about:
Nature "uses" sex to continue the existence of the human race.
Or the purpose of sex is to continue the existence of the human race.
Or Nature "attaches" pleasure to sex to make sure there is sex.
October 11th, 2008 at 8:48 am
"continue the existence of the human race" should be "continue the existence of human beings!"
October 11th, 2008 at 8:52 am
and birth control (contraception of all forms), primarily and esentially PREVENTING birth, is sure as HELL not continuing the existence of human beings!
(Seems to me its more hell bent on SELF DESTRUCTION OF THE EXISTENCE OF HUMAN BEINGS)
October 11th, 2008 at 9:01 am
"PREVENTING" should be "aborting the very beginning of the reproduction of human beings by aborting the reproductive process of a human being"
October 11th, 2008 at 9:28 am
"PREVENTING" should be "aborting the very beginning of the reproduction of human beings by aborting the reproductive process of a human being
So a married couple who abstain from sex, or use NFP, are guilty of abortion since they are preventing reproduction.
Interesting.
And you guys wonder why more mainstream voters align themselves with the pro-choice side.
October 11th, 2008 at 11:47 am
baloney! nfp DOES NOT ABORT, DOES NOT ABORT, in any way, shape, form, or manner the reproductive process of human beings!
October 11th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
AND "abstaining from sex" DOES NOT, DOES NOT, abort in any way, shape, form, or manner the reproductive process of a human being, male or female!
October 11th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
DOING NOTHING is NOT the same thing as ABORTING!
October 11th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
What is the difference between "DOING" and "NOT DOING" that you don't understand?
October 11th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
DOING - aborting
NOT DOING - nfp
October 11th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
But NFP prevents conception and pregnancy. And, in your words:
"PREVENTING" should be "aborting the very beginning of the reproduction of human beings by aborting the reproductive process of a human being
Therefore, NFP = Abortion.
October 11th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
what!?? I used PREVENTING in defining birth control….I was defining birth control by using the word PREVENTING….the definition using the word PREVENTING is about birth control……no where in the definition was nfp or nfp's definition mentioned!!!
And I defined nfp prior to above…..and the definition of nfp is the full negation of the definition of birth control!!!
October 11th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
definition of birth control uses "abort"!
definition of nfp uses the words "does not abort"!
October 11th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
how the hell could nfp abort in any way, when the very existence of nfp is that NOTHING is done!
Is "doing nothing" a form of abortion???
October 11th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Sherrie, you are in need of reviewing logic, syllogisms, and true and false conclusions! (said with respect).
October 11th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Jerry,
Please watch your language. I know it's frustrating sometimes, but stay calm, pray for the right words, then walk away from the keyboard, come back and reread what you wrote before hitting "Submit".
Sherrie,
The old joke about "Mom and Dad" refers to the old "rhythm method", not what we currently know as NFP. RM looks at a calendar and, based on a woman's average-length menstrual cycle, guesses at when the next ovulation will occur (roughly in the middle). It worked well enough for women with very regular cycles, but many (most?) women have variable cycles. Modern NFP is extremely effective, as it reads a woman's body's signs of fertility: mucus, temperature, cervical position and softness. Its effectiveness is proven in scientific studies.
October 11th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
I wasn't the one who made the "Mom and Dad" joke, and I have no problem with people who use NFP or the Rhythm Method. I have actually used RM in the past, backed up with other forms of bc, with 100% success.
Just because a certain method works for you, and aligns with YOUR values, does not mean that you have the right to force everyone else to make that same choice.
Jerry says:
And I defined nfp prior to above…..and the definition of nfp is the full negation of the definition of birth control!!!
I'm sorry, but by its very definition, nfp is indeed a form of birth control. Its purpose is to allow a couple to have sex without conceiving. Period.
October 11th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
What is the definition of "control"?
It includes "not doing nothing"?
If that's the case, I am "controlling" ALL the propagating people in the world.!
October 11th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
CORRECTION!!! (very sorry)
"It includes "not doing nothing"? SHOULD BE:
"It includes 'doing nothing'"?
October 11th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
(darn!….I must slow up)
October 11th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
#96 REPEATED CORRECTLY:
What is the definition of "control"?
It includes "doing nothing"?
If that's the case, am I not "controlling" ALL the propagating people in the world, (you included, of course) whenever I practice NFP?
October 11th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Sherrie says:
But NFP prevents conception and pregnancy. And, in your words:
"PREVENTING" should be "aborting the very beginning of the reproduction of human beings by aborting the reproductive process of a human being
Therefore, NFP = Abortion.
****************
Exactly. Although I fully expect to see a denial of that fact. The catholic church simply hates the idea that women can fully ENJOY "their immoral actions" (ie having great sex) without the unwanted burdens of pregnancy and birth as "consequences for their immoral actions."
That's why they continue to insist that if catholic women don't want children, they should abstain until they do want kids. Since sexual tyranny isn't my cup of tea, I'll cheerfully vote "thanks but no thanks." Unlike Sarah Palin, I am NOT lying when I say it.
October 11th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
VNA donates $$$$$ to PP… so should we boycott their services as well?
October 11th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Re: #95 (Sherrie):
"Its purpose is to allow a couple to have sex…."
response:
"purpose" & "allow" refer to intention only.
A couple have sex by nature, regardless of any intentions, such as "purpose" or "allow".
"purpose" & "allow" (as used above)is totally immaterial as being a "control" of the sex in question.
October 11th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
"prevents" as in actually doing something, to prevent.
"prevents" as in not doing something, thus if something doesn't happen because of its nature, we say we prevented it because we intended it to not happen.
October 11th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Re: #103 above-
"actually doing something" - aborting (contraception)
"not doing something" - abstaining (nfp)
October 11th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Sherrie,
Sorry for not responding sooner, I've been out of town for the last few days.
So you agree that unborn children are people, but that their lives have less value then those born. So because they are less valuable, they are disposable. Do you feel that way about the disabled, or the elderly?
You see we all complain about the lack of caring that our society has for one another. We ask why is everyone so self absorbed? We teach and model that the easiest way is the best way, and that if we're unhappy or uncomfortable to get rid of the "problem".
There is no personal responsiblity for our actions.
How can we claim to care about life, when we say it is alright to destroy life before birth? It starts there. A culture of life begins in the womb and doesn't end until natural death. And until we return to the fundemental right of all people (Born and Unborn) to persue life, liberty and happiness, we are doomed for our culture to continue to decline.
October 11th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Green, please give source of your statement about VNA, if true that is a point to ponder. I did hear that the health dept. does refer clients to PP who want an abortion. This is a concern but I don't think they give funds to any private organization. They usually are looking for grants to get extra funding.
October 11th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
http://www.vnafoundation.net/pdfs/06/2006.pdf page 18-19
October 12th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Please read Randall Terry's "A Humble Plea" at http://www.ahumbleplea.com/Docs/ahumbleplea.pdf
He is the founder of "Operation Rescue" and a life-long Pro-Lifer who suffered many crosses because of his convictions. This should be a document read by all.
God bless,
Elizabeth
October 12th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Thamk you Green. I found VNA's 2006 grant list on page 33 of 42 of the report. I appreciate the info, it looks like $25,000 out of over 1 million went to pay 2 Advanced Practice Nurses through PP to do culposcopies (which is cervical cancer treatment). Although they did not provide money for abortions, I would rather them not use PP for this as there are other true "healthcare organizations" which could have provided this treatment. But overall as I looked through the list of grants there are some good organizations which they provided more money to, for instance, American Lung Asso., Breakthrough Urban Ministries, Lawndale Christian Health Center, Chicago Christian Industrial League and others. I do want to ponder this a little longer, may look into it more and pray about it. Thank you for the info. I do know they provide a lot of services for uninsured and underinsured, the elderly, the disabled, the homeless, etc. on a sliding fee basis and have done so for years. Most of our faith-based hospitals and organizations have done the same as well, not turning away those in need. WE STAND FOR LIFE.
October 12th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Yeah, I know I said it before, but you guys really need to read Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body, or at least a decent summary (it is a huge collection of writings) before you go claiming to understand the Catholic Church's teachings on sexuality.
The Church is the biggest fan of great sex. She just believes there's more to great sex than physical pleasure.
I don't assume you'll agree with it, but with all the claims you make about the Church's teaching and motives, it would be the respectable thing to do to at least familiarize yourself with the subject you're pontificating on.
October 12th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
a VIDEO - Mike Huckabee: Global Financial Terrorism?.
Mike
October 12th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Matt,
Are you addressing me? I don't recall saying anything about the Catholic Church or its teachings.
Tara, I will return with an answer for you, but I am quite busy at the moment with some other obligations. I did not want you to think I was ignoring/avoiding you.
S.
October 13th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Sherrie says:
Matt,
Are you addressing me? I don't recall saying anything about the Catholic Church or its teachings.
*********************
Sherrie, I'm pretty sure he was addressing one of my replies. He didn't appreciate my linking the catholic church with sexual tyranny, which IMO it is doing by allowing members to use only the least reliable form of contraception to prevent the unwanted burden of pregnancy and birth. Everything else is termed a "sin" and forbidden, because they are more effective at preventing pregnancy than NFP.
Certain sexual acts like masturbation and oral sex" are also "sins" if they purposely avoid the act of intercourse. Because, as the doctrine supposedly says, "all sex acts must be open to life." In plain English, that means pregnancy is the eventual desired outcome of sex, not pleasure alone.
The church loves to disguise its sexual tyranny by pretending to be "positive," using catch-phrases like "pro-family," and all that guff. Their phony spin didn't convince me long ago, and it still doesn't convince me now.
October 13th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Sherrie,
Thanks. I didn't think that you were ignoring me. I know how hectic life is.
October 13th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Ocean,
I have to strongly disagree with you about NFP. My husband and I use it, we've been married 14 years, planned on 4 children and have 3. I lost one of my children to miscarraige. It can be very effective if you know your own body cycles. I thought you all were about knowing your body and how it works.
As for as sexual ethics, I'm not Catholic, I'm Protestant so I can only speak to that. Sex is supposed to be pleasurable, and mutally beneficial, but it should only be expressed in the confines of marraige between a man and a women. That's what God intended. We are to be open and vulnerable to our spouses, not just in sexual relations, but in all areas of our relationship. But with that said, we are to also have children, for they are our greatest blessing.
October 13th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Ocean,
Read post 94 and then actually go to the link provided by clicking on "scientific studies". NFP is far more reliable than barrier methods like condoms. In fact, it is even more reliable than most methods, including the Pill. The only more effective artificial method is sterilization.
Please read the information provided before spouting off against something you don't understand.
October 13th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Tara Says:
As for as sexual ethics, I'm not Catholic, I'm Protestant so I can only speak to that. Sex is supposed to be pleasurable, and mutally beneficial, but it should only be expressed in the confines of marraige between a man and a women. That's what God intended. We are to be open and vulnerable to our spouses, not just in sexual relations, but in all areas of our relationship. But with that said, we are to also have children, for they are our greatest blessing.
*****************************
That's what is so great about being free from gods, religions and churches. No one, including priests or pastors, is able to put their tyrannical "shoulds" on me. I am free to make my own choices in sexual and reproductive matters.
YOU may have to resign yourself to having sex only when or if married, I do not. Unlike the hard-line religionists, I don't view sex as a privilege for the married only. And I don't HAVE to have more children if I don't want them, and I don't. Procreation is ONE reason for enjoying sex, it is not the ONLY reason.
October 13th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Sylvia Says:
NFP is far more reliable than barrier methods like condoms. In fact, it is even more reliable than most methods, including the Pill. The only more effective artificial method is sterilization.
Please read the information provided before spouting off against something you don't understand.
*****************************
I said "as far as I'M concerned," which means that no matter how many times you SAY NFP is more reliable than other methods, I wouldn't take the chance. Luckily, I'm not forced to do so.
Personally, I believe the pill, the condom and other methods are more reliable than NFP, and since it is MY body taking the risk, my choice is the only one that counts.
October 13th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Ocean,
I agree that procreation is ONE reason to enjoy sex.
I have my own mind, no pastor tells me what to think. I do that for myself. I am not a hard line religionist. My faith is not based just on emotion, but years of studing, prayer and searching. You do not know anything about me to make that kind of judgement.
It is not hard line religion to believe that Jesus is the Savior and Redeemer of all creation. I am NOT ashamed or embarressed to call Jesus Christ my Savior. I am not ashamed to be a Christian, my call to share the Gospel, and living my life according to The Bible. That is what is so awsome abour God, He gave us free will. You can chose to believe or not. He still loves those who reject Him, but in the end there are consequences.
October 14th, 2008 at 12:35 am
"Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion. What is taking place in America is a war against the child. And if we accept that the mother can kill her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?" ~ Mother Theresa of Calcutta
October 14th, 2008 at 3:17 am
a ***VIDEO - New Ad Exposes How Obama Wants All Laws Reducing Abortion Overturned***.
Mike
October 14th, 2008 at 7:06 am
I did read the link you posted — and some other articles there as well. This one was particularly interesting. It states that the only birth control accepted by the RCC is the Rhythm Method and that method may kill off more embryos than other birth control pills. Given the feelings of many here, do you really want that on your hands?
October 14th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
"kill off more embryos"…..It's NOT Rhythm thats "doing" the "killing"!!! Nature is!!!
October 15th, 2008 at 3:36 am
Rhythm is "doing" NOTHING!!! The pill is actually aborting!!!
(please excuse these triple "!!!")
October 15th, 2008 at 3:42 am
"than other birth control pills"….makes it sound like RHYTHM is a pill!!!….it is NOT, RHYTHM is doing NOTHING!!!. the pill actually does something…it aborts!!!
October 15th, 2008 at 3:52 am
RHYTHM, as in NOT DOING ANYTHING, (ABSTANENCE!!!)
October 15th, 2008 at 3:54 am
(I believe I'm being "suckered" into the "game" of "let's make him explode".) Why do I say this?
Because the above "problem" is another exemple of:
What is it about the difference between DOING and NOTHING that you DON'T understand???
October 15th, 2008 at 4:07 am
(After thought) Re: #122 (Student):
the word "embryos" is used…..we are talking about NOT embryos, but rather the PROCESS OF REPRODUCING an embryo.
October 15th, 2008 at 4:35 am
(speaking generally):
ABORTING a process…..KILLING the result of a process.
October 15th, 2008 at 5:00 am
nfp is NOT birth control…..neither artificial nor natural birth control.
nfp is abstinence….doing nothing!….if birth doesn't occur, it is because of nature, NOT because of nfp (abstinence).
October 15th, 2008 at 9:51 am
correction:
"birth" should be "conception"…..sorry.
October 15th, 2008 at 9:53 am
an observation:
1. the reproductive process results in conception, (a previously non-existent EXISTENCE!).
2. whereas pregnancy results in only growth!
3. thus "aborting" (birth control) number 1 above, may not be as insignificant when compared to "killing" (abortion) number 2 above.
October 15th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
point #3 above—"birth control" should be "contraception"!….sorry
October 15th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Student,
Your last post was referring to an rticle that is spewing nonsense. First, it is absolutely incorrect in its assertion that the rhythm metod is the only method accepted by thr RCC. Just go to any reliable Catholic source (try the USCCB for starters). Then, the so-called "finding" is in an ethics journal, not a medical journal. And even the "Professor" says, "We don't know how much lower embryo viability is outside this fertile period". So everything is based on conjecture and wishful thinking on the part of someone who wants to slam the RCC. Finally, there is no such thing as "embryos conceived on the fringes of the fertile period". When an egg is released, it has 12-24 hrs to be fertilized before it dies. Ummm….how can you have "fringes" in a 24-hr period? "Gosh, Honey, let's have sex at 2pm, so as not to conceive on the 'fringes'." See the absurdity?
October 16th, 2008 at 9:10 am
(for the record, so to speak….please disregard if it is a distraction from the present focus)
1. The reproductive process of a human being, male & female concerns PROCREATION.
2. Pregnancy concerns GROWTH.
3. Contraception ABORTS 1. Abortion KILLS 2.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Sylvia,
Elaborate on #134. Would it have been correct to say "NFP" instead. I was confused. I trust your commentary.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Lori Kalner is a holocaust survivor whose true story is told in one of their book series. If you think this election doesn't matter, read this and then think again.
(Click on to this link; I found it online; http://blip.tv/file/1309087 ) Copy and Paste this link in your browser so that you can listen and view the song children are singing about Obama!
Last night, I found that the original YouTube of the children singing for Obama has been made private, but I found it online… please read the following and ponder…..
HYMN TO HITLER
Posted by: Lori Kalner on Wednesday, October 01, 2008
Hymn to Hitler
by
Lori Kalner
In Germany, when Hitler came to power, it was a time of terrible financial depression. Money was worth nothing. In Germany people lost homes and jobs, just like in the American Depression in the 1930s, which we have read about in Thoene's Shiloh books.
In those days, in my homeland, Adolph Hitler was elected to power by promising "Change."
He blamed the "Zionists" around the world for all our problems. He told everyone it was greedy Zionist Bankers who had caused every problem we had. He promised when he was leader, the greedy Zionist bankers would be punished. The Zionists, he promised, would be wiped off the face of the earth.
So Hitler was elected to power by only 1/3 the popular vote. A coalition of other political parties in parliament made him supreme leader. Then, when he was leader, he disgraced and expelled everyone in parliament who did not go along with him.
Yes. Change came to my homeland as the new leader promised it would.
The teachers in German schools began to teach the children to sing songs in praise of Hitler. This was the beginning of the Hitler Youth movement. It began with praise of the Fuhrer's programs on the lips of innocent children. Hymns in praise of Hitler and his programs were being sung in the schoolrooms and in the play yard. Little girls and boys joined hands and sang these songs as they walked home from school.
My brother came home and told Papa what was happening at school. The political hymns of children proclaimed Change was coming to our homeland and the Fuhrer was a leader we could trust.
I will never forget my father's face. Grief and fear. He knew that the best propaganda of the Nazis was song on the lips of little children.
That evening before he said grace at the dinner table, he placed his hands upon the heads of my brothers and me and prayed the Living Word upon us from Jeremiah 1:4-5.
'Now the Word of the Lord came to me, saying,
"Before I formed you in the
womb I knew you,
and before you were born I
consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to
The nations."
Soon the children's songs praising the Fuhrer were heard everywhere on the streets and over the radio. "With our Fuhrer to lead us, we can do it! We can change the world!"
Soon after that Papa, a pastor, was turned away from visiting elderly parishioners in hospitals. The people he had come to bring comfort of God's Word, were "no longer there."
Where had they vanished to while under nationalized health care? It became an open secret. The elderly and sick began to disappear from hospitals feet first as "mercy killing" became the policy. Children with disabilities and those who had Down syndrome were euthanized.
People whispered, "Maybe it is better for them now. Put them out of misery. They are no longer suffering.And, of course, their death is better for the treasury of our nation. Our taxes no longer must be spent to care for such a burden."
And so murder was called mercy.
The government took over private business. Industry and health care were "nationalized." (NA-ZI means National Socialist Party) The businesses of all Jews were seized. (Perhaps you remember our story in Berlin on Krystalnacht in the book Munich Signature)
The world and God's word were turned upside down. Hitler promised the people economic Change?
Not change. It was, rather, Lucifer's very ancient Delusion leading to Destruction.
What began with the propaganda of children singing a catchy tune ended in the deaths of millions of children. The reality of what came upon us is so horrible that you in this present generation cannot imagine it.
Our suffering is too great to ever tell in a book or show in a black and white newsreel.
When I spoke to Bodie about some of these things, she wept and said she could not bear to write them. Perhaps one day she will, but I asked her, "who could bear to read our suffering?"
Yet with my last breaths I warn every Christian and Jew now in the name of the Lord,
Unless your course of the church in America is spiritually changed now, returning to the Lord, there are new horrors yet to come.
I trembled last night when I heard the voices of American children raised in song, praising the name of Obama, the charismatic fellow who claims he is the American Messiah.
Yet I have heard what this man Obama says about abortion and the "mercy killing" of tiny babies who are not wanted.
There are so few of us left to warn you.
I have heard that there are 69 million Catholics in America and 70 million Evangelical Christians.
Where are your voices? Where is your outrage? Where is passion and your vote?
Do you vote based on an abortionist's empty promises and economics? Or do you vote according to the Bible?
Thus says the Lord about every living child still in the womb.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you."
I have experienced the signs of the politics of Death in my youth.
I see them again now.
Christians! Unless you stand up now, you will lose your freedom of religion.
In America priests and preachers have already lost their freedom to speak openly from their pulpits of moral danger in political candidates. They cannot legally instruct you of which candidate holds fast to the precepts of scripture! American law forbids this freedom of speech to conservative pastors or they will lose their "tax exempt" status.
And yet I have heard the words of Obama's pastor Damning America! I have heard the words of Obama damning and mocking all of you in small towns because you "Cling to your religion."
But I am a woman whose name is unknown. My life is recorded as a work of fiction. I have no fear of reprisal when I speak truth to you from the pages of a book. (Though the Zion Covenant books are mocked and condemned by the Left in America.)
I am an old woman and will soon go to be with my Lord. I have no fear for myself, but for all of you and for your children, I tremble.
I tremble at the hymns to a political leaders which your children will sing at school. (Though even now a hymn or a prayer to God and our Lord Jesus is against the law in public school!)
Your vote must put a stop to what will come upon America if Barrack Obama is elected.
I pray you will personally heed this warning for the sake of your children and your grandchildren. Do not be deceived.
The Lord in Jeremiah 1:7-8 commands every believer to speak up!
"Do not say, 'I am only a youth,' for to all whom I send you, you shall go, and whatever I command you, you shall speak. Do not be afraid of them for I am with you, declares the Lord!"
I am in Prayer for you, and for the Church!
Spoken to you in the authority of Jesus the Christ,
the Name Above All Names,
Lori Kalner
October 19th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
An ethnically diverse group of children singing for peace and change….what nerve!
It's always a shame the way some people use children.
October 19th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Student, re: your #138,
"An ethnically diverse group of children singing for peace and change…..what nerve!"
Could you perhaps make the above statement "complete" by restating as one of the following two?:
"An ethnically diverse group of children singing for peace and good change…..what nerve!"
OR
"An ethnically diverse group of children singing for peace and bad change…..what nerve!"
peace
October 20th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Re: post 136
Yes, "NFP" would have been more accurate, as it is a broader term. More exact would have been the "Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP" to describe the modern, effective method of NFP. To use the outdated term, "rhythm", demonstrates lack of knowledge on the writer's part.
Thanks for asking.
October 20th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Student,
There's a difference between teaching children about truth and to be bold in proclaiming that truth as Christ instructed, and having kids sing a song full of vague platitudes about a false Messiah. One message: trust God; the other: trust Obama. I'll place my trust in God.
October 20th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Sherrie says, If P.P. had done a good job of demonizing itself it would have already put itself out of business, Judging by the very full parking lot at my local P.P. almost every time I drive by the exact opposite appears to be true.
Update: That "full paking lot" includes a number of employee vehicles!!!!
Even one of the end of day nurses now gets to park out front!
No matter who parks where is not an issue.
What is: mental health providers are treating an increasing number of women who are suffering mental and emotional difficulties as a result of induced abortions. (Reardon,Aborted Women-Silent No More,Chicago:Loyola University Press, 1987).
PP established themselves in the upscale neighborhood of Fox Valley without the consent of the people.
And now the people are standing 40 Days for LIFE!
October 22nd, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Not true! You're using information that is out of date and proven incorrect.
An expert panel of the American Psychiatric Association found that “[f]or the vast majority of women, an abortion will be followed by a mixture of emotions, with a predominance of positive feelings.”
SOURCE: N.E. Adler et al., Psychological Factors in Abortion: A Review, American Psychologist, 1194–1204, 1202 (Oct. 1992)
A longitudinal study of young women aged 14 to 21 found that “[a]lthough women may experience some distress immediately after having an abortion, the experience has no independent effect on their psychological well-being over time.
SOURCE: S. Edwards, Abortion Study Finds No Long-Term Ill Effects on Emotional Well-Being, Family Planning Perspectives, 193–94 (July–Aug. 1997). The study used data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, with respondents aged 14 to 21 at the start of research. Data was from 1979 through 1987.
October 23rd, 2008 at 8:10 am
"over time" - if one figures 1, 5, even 10 years says it all about something….one is in for a surprise if the situation is such that it takes many more years for the final effect to be felt.
October 23rd, 2008 at 8:46 am
"one is in for a surprise" should be "one may be in for a surprise"
October 23rd, 2008 at 8:52 am
There was a abortion "peak" attributed to roe vs wade, I think about 1977 (I'm guessing). What would a survey of a couple thousand of these people reveal? (30 years after the fact).
October 23rd, 2008 at 8:58 am
If one does something seriously evil, but because of one's "strong faith and its healing powers, etc.", and one "completely repents, etc.", would not one's "emotional well-being" be quite high?
October 23rd, 2008 at 9:23 am
(for the record….off present topic):
If a situation exists such that,
Case 1. Some thing is possible.
Case 2. Some thing is impossible.
Above "doesn't say it all" for the following reasons:
These are just "thought processes"! But if they become actual existences such that;
Case 1. Some thing comes into existence.
Case 2. Nothing. (because the thing was impossible)
We now see that the distinction between possible vs impossible is more meaningfull because we see that eventually it becomes the difference between an actual existing thing vs flat out nothing.
October 23rd, 2008 at 9:56 am
oh…horrors! I should have used "human being" for "thing"….it would have been more "powerful".
October 23rd, 2008 at 10:01 am
#143-Student
I too like to use up to date information.
However, I used what I did because it applies to now.
For example, Year 2008, I know of more than 5 but less
than 10 ladies who live in White Eagle, more upscale
than Oakhurst, who have had abortions over 8 years
ago and are struggling deeply over having done this.
Each of the ladies feel they can not tell their husbands.
One of the ladies is not able to have any children.
Their heart cry is tremendous today.
And that is why we are standing outside the clinic.
Our heart cry is temendous before the Lord.
Also, there is Project Rachel to help ladies with
their healing journey. Contact: 888-456-HOPE
October 23rd, 2008 at 10:09 am
Student says:
A longitudinal study of young women aged 14 to 21 found that “[a]lthough women may experience some distress immediately after having an abortion, the experience has no independent effect on their psychological well-being over time.
SOURCE: S. Edwards, Abortion Study Finds No Long-Term Ill Effects on Emotional Well-Being, Family Planning Perspectives, 193–94 (July–Aug. 1997). The study used data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, with respondents aged 14 to 21 at the start of research. Data was from 1979 through 1987.
**************************
I'm sure these results will not matter to those who are convinced of just the opposite. Then again, the rcc opposes all contraception methods but that idiotic NFP, so I don't think preventing abortion is such a high priority for the rcc as it wants everyone to believe.
October 23rd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Sylvia says:
Re: post 136
Yes, "NFP" would have been more accurate, as it is a broader term. More exact would have been the "Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP" to describe the modern, effective method of NFP. To use the outdated term, "rhythm", demonstrates lack of knowledge on the writer's part.
Thanks for asking.
***********************
No matter what you call it, I still consider NFP highly UNreliable, and I would never use it. There are better ways to enjoy sex and avoid the burden of unwanted pregnancy at the same time.
October 23rd, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Student: I find it interesting that you criticize Margo for using data from 1987, then use a report from 1992 yourself. Anyhow, National Right to Life already wrote a great article debunking the 1992 APA study you site. Some of the highlights:
“the APA already had a strong position in favor of abortion. As early as 1969 it argued that abortion should be considered as a ‘civil right of the pregnant woman,’ a position reaffirmed multiple times since. Second, the panel of experts assembled by the APA had a decidedly pro-abortion tilt. It included Henry David, Nancy Adler, Brenda Major, Nancy Russo, and others who either had already publicly expressed strong pro-abortion positions or established one through their articles or statements.” Check out the articles by two of these “experts”! The APA couldn’t have assembled a more biased group!
Brenda Major … or Dr. Nancy Russo:
Let me preempt the “this means they are merely expert in the field, that’s why they were on this panel” argument. These authors wrote articles that concluded abortion doesn’t harm women. Thus they were all biased to defend this viewpoint when they met for the APA “expert analysis.” And there was no one on the panel with an opposite view to counterbalance them. Just the way, Student, you try to keep us accurate and “we” (the rest of us!) try to keep you accurate, both sides need to be present on such a panel to keep it unbiased.
The women of Silent No More, who regularly speak out about their traumatic abortion experiences wrote a press release debunking the most recent edition of the APA study was released. Dr. David Reardon and Theresa Burke released an updated version of the book Forbidden Grief in 2002. That year Reardon also released a book called Aborted Women Silent No More, which tells the stories of 20 women who had abortions.
Now, I haven’t read the old APA study (’92), but the ’08 study draws a very narrow conclusion—they say they have found that when an adult woman has an abortion of her unwanted pregnancy during the first 12 weeks that she doesn’t seem to feel bad. Many of the girls entering abortion clinics, though, *are* girls. Many other women are having repeat abortions. And many more still do want the pregnancy, but they just don’t know how they can cope with it, so they choose abortion. Thus their results aren’t as broad ranging as some like to insist.
October 23rd, 2008 at 2:53 pm
As a side note, just because the APA says/writes it, doesn't mean it's right. A few examples:
1) In 1999 the Psychological Bulletin of the APA printed a story called “A meta-analytic examination of Properties of Child Sexual Abuse using college samples.” According to the New York Times (6/13/99) the authors concluded that the effects of sexual abuse on children “were neither pervasive nor typically intense.” The same article quotes a statement from Dr. Rind, one of the study’s authors, which states “Even though our study has been criticized by certain persons in the media, many psychologists at academic institutions have praised it as being excellent work.”
[since Student is arguing with me on the Predators blog about the Catholic Church’s abuse scandal, she seems to agree that child abuse is significantly harmful—so in theory we’re all in agreement that this study sucked.]
2) The Toronto Star (9/3/93) reported on the presentation of Ohio researchers at the APA conference in Chicago. They reported that 1/3 of people interviewed (43% of men and 25% of women) had used “token resistance” with a sexual partner—ie they said no, but meant yes. [Great, the old, "she said no, but I know she meant yes" line. I thought that disappeared in the '50s.]
3) The Washington Times (4/11/99) printed a letter from Cathie Evans, a licensed clinical social worker. She wrote that the new edition of the APA manual for diagnosing mental disorders now redefined “pedophilia” so that “a pedophile who has not experiencing clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other areas of functioning from their actions would not meet all of the diagnostic criteria for a diagnosis of pedophilia if the child was deemed to be a consenting participant.” [APA says: Pedophilia? Eh, who cares. Go for it!]
The line "question authority" seems to be applicable here.
*sorry these articles aren't available online, I got them from LexisNexis, which I no longer have access to. I do have the full text available if you want it. Email me at corrina at prolifeaction dot org
October 23rd, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Thank you for admitting that most women don't "feel bad" after an abortion. This is a far different conclusion than the hysteria usually presented.
As an aside, we were talking about civil v. criminal charges earlier. This came over the wire just today – and the abuse took place between 2000-2002 (not the 60's and 70's)! You’ll note that this priest was criminally convicted in 2006 on state charges and criminally convicted today on Federal charges.
October 24th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
"Thank you for admitting that most women don't "feel bad" after an abortion."
Woah! Hold the phone!! Slow down and reread what I wrote! I NEVER said that! I only restated the findings of the study in the passage you quote; I also said the authors admitted that their findings are very limited in scope. The entire rest of my post was about how that study is WRONG and I produced documents about how that study was flawed.
"As an aside, we were talking about civil v. criminal charges earlier. This came over the wire just today – and the abuse took place between 2000-2002…"
Let's try to get back to the main topic here. I questioned the civil v. criminal because the examples you originally posted were civil. Good for you that you were able to find criminal convictions, but I haven't disputed that abuses did occur in the Catholic Church.
But if you want to keep going on that topic, you ought to find somewhere else to have that argument. This thread is about PP's abuses against girls. I'm not going to continue to discuss the Catholic abuse scandal with you any more.
October 24th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
No, you're trying to inflict your beliefs on others. Nothing more.
Please see, http://www.imnotsorry.net/
Many women do not need a "healing journey."
October 24th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Yes, I get it. You want to use the parts that agree with your arguments and disregard the rest. I understand.
Of course you're not. I've made my point. Girls (and boys) are far safer at PP than at the catholic church.
October 24th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Re: 152
Ocean,
Please tell me why the Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP is "UNreliable". Your biased, unsubstantiated opinion doesn't count. Just because you said so, doesn't make it fact. I gave you scientific research that says it is MORE effective than artificial contraceptives. Did you bother to read it?
So why is it then "UNreliable"?
October 25th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Student,
MILLIONS of girls and boys are MURDERED at PP. That far outweighs the tragedy of child abuse that has occurred in the RCC (or other churches, schools, Boy Scouts, etc). Yes, sexual abuse is terrible and must be stopped, but it is the Culture of Death led by PP that has created the social climate that furthers the abuse of children.
When human beings are devalued and dehumanized in their most vulnerable and innocent form in the wombs of their mothers, what is to stop the dehumanizing of others, including children. It is this that leads to their abuse. Children become objects for the pleasure of others.
PP attacks the humanity of the preborn as well as the men and women, boys and girls, who use their "services". In the eyes of PP, they are all reduced to animals who have no self control or free will, and certainly no consciences or God. Animals have no souls. But human beings do. PP has it all wrong.
October 25th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Sylvia says:
Re: 152
Ocean,
Please tell me why the Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP is "UNreliable". Your biased, unsubstantiated opinion doesn't count. Just because you said so, doesn't make it fact. I gave you scientific research that says it is MORE effective than artificial contraceptives. Did you bother to read it?
So why is it then "UNreliable"?
************************************
(sigh) Sylvia, maybe you should go back and read post #152 again. What actually said was, "I still consider NFP highly UNreliable, and I would never use it." It is MY body, therefore it is MY choice of what contraceptive to use or NOT use, correct?
I would never use NFP as a contraceptive method for any reason, and never did. That's probably why I have only ONE child, which was MY CHOICE. Why that would be a problem for you or anyone else is beyond me. And I don't have to explain my reasons for choosing a different contraceptive method either.
October 25th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Sylvia says:
Student,
MILLIONS of girls and boys are MURDERED at PP. That far outweighs the tragedy of child abuse that has occurred in the RCC (or other churches, schools, Boy Scouts, etc). Yes, sexual abuse is terrible and must be stopped, but it is the Culture of Death led by PP that has created the social climate that furthers the abuse of children.
****************************
This is one of the most sickening arguments against PP that I've ever read, and thanks for reminding me once again why I dumped not only the rcc over 30 years ago, but the toxic burdens of all gods, religions and churches while I was at it. It's wonderful to be free from the sexual and reproductive tyranny that the rcc represents.
October 25th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Please explain how PP created the "social climate" that furthered the RCC child molestation scandal.
October 25th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
For goodness sake, just drop the abuse scandal. It has nothing to do with the issue. If no priest touched a child, abortion would be wrong. If every priest touched a child, abortion would be wrong. What's your point, and why do you even post here?
October 25th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
re: 164 - "why do you even post here?"
I have definitely often "wondered" what the answer to that question is! (and perhaps "wondered" is a gross understatement).
October 26th, 2008 at 9:31 am
I did explain. But I will expound on my explanation:
PP is trying, with its money, power, and influence, to spread its poison throughout society (and the world for that matter). It envisions a world where abortion and contracep