Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood

Clinic Witness Training Seminar March 15.

Posted by Matt Yonke on Thursday, February 28th, 2008

March 15th from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m.—right after our monthly protest at Planned Parenthood—Village Baptist Church will host a Clinic Witness Training Seminar to better equip you to help women and babies here in Aurora. Mark your calendar and register today for this exciting event!

Veteran sidewalk counselor JT Eschbach will present a full-spectrum analysis of how best to witness for the gospel of life, aimed specifically at the Planned Parenthood here in Aurora. Here are the details:

This pro-life seminar isn't just for sidewalk counselors. JT will discuss how to make our prayer presence a solid support for counselors and their life saving work.

JT has spent years on the sidewalks outside abortion facilities in Chicagoland and across the country. He is eager to share the skills he has developed both in communication and strategy in dealing with abortion-bound mothers as well as police and abortion facility employees.

Critical training for all sidewalk counselors and prayer warriors

Even experienced sidewalk counselors will learn something new from JT's critical insights into the challenges we face at Planned Parenthood Aurora. JT will offer specific suggestions on how to counsel and pray most effectively where we live.

The seminar will be held at Village Baptist Church, 515 S. Frontenac St. in Aurora (map), just one mile from Planned Parenthood. Registration is $10, which includes the seminar and lunch. Space is limited, so register today! I hope to see you there.

Help Promote the Clinic Witness Seminar

You can help promote the March 15 seminar by asking your pastor to put an announcement in the bulletin [PDF].

Also, share this video by JT with your friends. Show them how peaceful and prayful our pro-life presence at Planned Parenthood really is.

This entry was posted on Thursday, February 28th, 2008 at 1:43 pm and is filed under Faith and Prayer, News. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Responses are currently closed, but you can trackback from your own site.

94 Responses to “Clinic Witness Training Seminar March 15.”

  1. Paul2 says:

    I was out at PP in Aurora praying today. I had some of my children there with me. Some pro-abort idiot careened his car towards us and ran over the orange cone
    and raced past dragging the cone with him all the way through the parking lot without slowing down. I tried to get in my car and follow but he high-tailed out the other side of the mall. Some of those pro-aborts are mentally disturbed and dangerous people. I guess they must be hurting. I did recover the cone at one of the exits on the other side of the parking lot, I njust wish I could have gotten his license plate number.

    It was a good day though. I enjoyed the prayer and besides that one jerk tens of other people waved and many even stopped to thank us for being there.

    March 1st, 2008 at 7:17 pm
  2. Student says:

    Paul2,
    First of all, I'm sorry for your experience this morning and hope your children are ok. However, I strongly disagree with your term "pro-abort" person. Second, how do you know the person was PC? No chance at all it was just a teenager driving recklessly? And why the need to psychoanalyze people you don't know?

    I doubt you would much appreciate if someone did the same to you based on a very limited to exposure or knowledge of who you are as a person. I could make all sorts of assumptions about you based on what little contact I've had, but they would be nothing more than a self-serving attempt to make someone else look bad, regardless of truth or accuracy. It's difficult to understand others when you do that.

    March 1st, 2008 at 9:25 pm
  3. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    You reaally don't sound too sincere in your apology about what happened. You seem more concerned about the reckless driver.

    March 1st, 2008 at 10:09 pm
  4. Paul2 says:

    You did not see the circumstances of the incident so it seems improper that you are so eager to cast doubt on my testimony. I was there. I saw his face. I saw how he drove. I "psychoanalyzed" him cause these types of actions typically come from an emotionally unstable person. He "chose" that particular time and that particular location to be reckless. Are you just being mean now? Your posts are beginning to sound more and angry and less and less rational.

    March 1st, 2008 at 10:20 pm
  5. Student says:

    Paul2,

    No, I'm not being mean. However, you're telling me that just by seeing his face you knew he was a "pro-abort idiot?" You've also determined that there are, apparently, "pro-aborts [who are] mentally disturbed and dangerous?" If so, wouldn't it be fair to make the same argument about many in the PL camp? I'm sorry, but I don't think it's right to make those assumptions.

    March 1st, 2008 at 11:17 pm
  6. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    It just shows what a severe state of denial you are in about this whole pro-life battle. You can't even accept that he purposefully aimed his car at us cause we were there praying outside the abortuary. I see you responding with such a closed mind. I cannot even get you to believe what I experienced first hand today.

    March 1st, 2008 at 11:29 pm
  7. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    Pro-aborts yelling obscenities or making angry gestures towards peaceful prayer demonstrators is rather common place, you just insist on living in your own reality and deny it.

    March 1st, 2008 at 11:46 pm
  8. Student says:

    Paul2,
    You're the one who sounds angry. I never said I doubted your account of the events. In fact, I challenge you to point to the post where I said and/or insinuated that it didn't happen. I'm sure it did happen. I simply challenged you on the name calling and psychoanalysis. I've never seen people more judgmental than those purporting to be religious. What happened to judge not?

    As to people yelling and making angry gestures, I'm sure that happens as well. In fact, I'll go one step further and back you up as I've seen it happen firsthand — but thanks for letting me know I don't live in reality. I personally have no more respect for people who do that than I do at people who yell at women entering the clinic. There are rude, childish and stupid people in both groups.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 10:54 am
  9. GJ Guest says:

    First of all, Paul2, there's no such thing as a "pro-abort" person. This name calling will never open up the dialog necessary to solve this problem.

    Second of all, Student, unless you are referring to someone other than the counselors I've seen outside the clinic over the last several months, what do you mean by "people who yell at women entering the clinic"? You make it sound like there is a level of harassment. If you sincerely believe so, I ask you to elaborate.

    I do wholeheartedly agree with you though that there are rude and childish people on both sides of this issue.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 11:14 am
  10. Ramir San Diego says:

    "There are rude, childish and stupid people in both groups."
    —————————————–

    Student,
    There seems to be a lot MORE of these on those who support abortion (pro-abort)…specially those that see us pro-lifers expressing our right to pray and protest peacefully.

    As to those whom you call "reckless" drivers, those are DELIBERATE actions aimed at Pro-lifers. How do I know?I have also experienced these actions several times as part of a Pro-life protest at the PP site (none of which happen when I am walking alone on the same street)…which basically leads me to believe that these are done by people who oppose what we (as pro-lifers) support)…hence, the conclusion that they must support abortion.

    How you can you claim that these are just "reckless" acts of a teenager, I really don't know.
    That's not all we receive, aside from very, very angry, blasphemous curses..we have received several middle fingers pointed towards heaven..some, in the presencfe of very young kids.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 11:28 am
  11. Student says:

    GJ Guest says: "First of all, Paul2, there's no such thing as a "pro-abort" person. This name calling will never open up the dialog necessary to solve this problem."

    THANK YOU!!!! I've been trying to make this point to no avail for some time now.

    **************

    GJ Guest says: "Student, unless you are referring to someone other than the counselors I've seen outside the clinic over the last several months, what do you mean by "people who yell at women entering the clinic"? You make it sound like there is a level of harassment. If you sincerely believe so, I ask you to elaborate."

    I think "most" of the people who are outside the clinic are well behaved. However, I have personally witnessed several occasions when women entering were on the receiving end of screaming and some pretty nasty comments by one "gentleman" (term used loosely) in particular. I do not know his name, but am happy to give you a description if you'd like. Also, I have seen 3 instances of women entering the clinic with their teenage daughters where they have asked the protesters to leave them alone to no avail. The proesters continued to yell at them from across the street and, yes, I do consider that to be harassment.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 11:36 am
  12. Student says:

    Ramir San Diego says: "There seems to be a lot MORE of these on those who support abortion (pro-abort)…specially those that see us pro-lifers expressing our right to pray and protest peacefully."

    Of course you believe that. However, at this point, I'm done addressing those of you who want to keep up with the name-calling. You really don't want to discuss anything. And, of course, you have a right to protest.

    ******************

    Ramir San Diego says: "As to those whom you call "reckless" drivers, ….."

    I simply asked if it was a possibility. Yes, I do believe that kind of thing happens and am genuinely sorry that it does. I find that kind of behvior inexcusable and would strongly suggest getting a license # and prosecuting.

    ******************

    Ramir San Diego says: "That's not all we receive, aside from very, very angry, blasphemous curses..we have received several middle fingers pointed towards heaven..some, in the presencfe of very young kids."

    I'm sure you've received that as well. Again, I've personally seen it happen. However, while I don't condone it, I do find it VERY hypocritical of you to complain that it occurs in the 'presence of very young kids' when you frequently expose other young kids to your graphic signs. Two wrongs don't make a right…..but I do understand the anger.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 11:43 am
  13. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    I'm still failing to see your logic. You agree these events happened and you agree that they were intentional but you refuse to accept that they were done by a person who resented our presence because we didn't catch him and didn't get a license number therefore we cant "prove" it to your satisfaction.
    That would be like saying someone who bombs an abortion clinic was not necessarily acting out against the clinic, they may have just been having a bad day and the clinic was nearby. Your laughable as you spew out being sorry and how that person should be prosecuted, but you won't accept that the perpetrator's motives were almost certainly to strike out specifically at the pro-life prayer presence. A stance that is oviously irrational to any unprejudiced person. A stancde that could only be sincerely believed by a very few who refuse to condemn obvious agression against peaceful pro-life protesting.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 12:36 pm
  14. Student says:

    Paul2 says: "I'm still failing to see your logic. You agree these events happened and you agree that they were intentional but you refuse to accept that they were done by a person who resented our presence because we didn't catch him and didn't get a license number therefore we cant "prove" it to your satisfaction."

    You're not failing to see "my logic" at all. You want an argument. I never said you had to "prove" anything. In fact, I said you should get a license # and prosecute. Further, had I witnessed the event I PERSONALLY WOULD HAVE CALLED THE POLICE

    That would be like saying someone who bombs an abortion clinic was not necessarily acting out against the clinic, they may have just been having a bad day and the clinic was nearby. Your laughable as you spew out being sorry and how that person should be prosecuted, but you won't accept that the perpetrator's motives were almost certainly to strike out specifically at the pro-life prayer presence. A stance that is oviously irrational to any unprejudiced person. A stancde that could only be sincerely believed by a very few who refuse to condemn obvious agression against peaceful pro-life protesting.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 12:51 pm
  15. Paul2 says:

    GJ,
    I will admit that I cannot be certain that the person who drove their car at us was pro-abort, but pro-abort people definitely exist out their. I also think Students analysis of the situation that it was intentional but it “may” have just been a wreckless teenager is irrational. There has to be at least a 90% chance that his “purpose” included animosity towards the peaceful prayer presence.

    Also, there definitely is such a thing as a pro-abort person. And they are not the same thing as a pro-choice person. What does it take to be called pro-abort? One type of pro-abort person that I have come across is the person who “promotes abortion” for the singular purpose that it is less of a burden on society and the earths resources as a whole. That is a self-serving pro-abort position. It is not about woman's choice. It’s rationale is about killing the baby for the "good" of society. And it is pro-abort. That is just one example. So why do you insist on calling people like this “pro-choice”? Would most pro-choice people want to bundled together with these people? I don’t think so. There motives have nothing to do with supporting a woman’s choice.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 12:53 pm
  16. Ramir San Diego says:

    "I do find it VERY hypocritical of you to complain that it occurs in the 'presence of very young kids' when you frequently expose other young kids to your graphic signs"
    ——————————————–
    Student,

    I wasn't complaining…I was merely stating facts. The use of the graphic signs have their purpose..to show the Truth about abortion.

    If young kids saw them and get upset, adults can use that as a teaching/ learning moment to show that some mommies love themselves more than the babies in their wombs…and we are here to show people that this should not be the case. I myself don't look at those pics very much since I get very emotional..but it strenghtens my personal resolve to put an end to this horror.

    But shouting obscenites, blasphemous curses, dirty fingers (in front of young kids) to people you don't agree with teaches them that this is an "acceptable" behaviour for an adult.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 2:13 pm
  17. Student says:

    Paul2 says: "I'm still failing to see your logic. You agree these events happened and you agree that they were intentional but you refuse to accept that they were done by a person who resented our presence because we didn't catch him and didn't get a license number therefore we cant "prove" it to your satisfaction."

    You're not failing to see "my logic" at all. You want an argument. I never said you had to "prove" anything. In fact, I said you should get a license # and prosecute. Further, had I witnessed the event I PERSONALLY WOULD HAVE CALLED THE POLICE. There is simply no excuse whatsoever for this type of behavior. Does that need further clarification for you???

    Paul2: "Your laughable as you spew out being sorry and how that person should be prosecuted, but you won't accept that the perpetrator's motives were almost certainly to strike out specifically at the pro-life prayer presence A stance that is oviously irrational to any unprejudiced person. A stancde that could only be sincerely believed by a very few who refuse to condemn obvious agression against peaceful pro-life protesting."

    See above response — further, it's highly likely it did happen because you were where you were — I have not and DO NOT condone it. My argument with you is your choice of words. You toss out "pro-abort" only to get a reaction and yet decide that I am irrational and prejudiced. I'm just guessing that you're not a licensed therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist yet you, in all your wisdom, make judgments that others are "mentally deranged?" If I said the same thing about someone who was PL you'd hit the roof — and rightfully so.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
  18. Student says:

    I'm sorry, Ramir, but we disagree. The photos and the obscenities are both out of line. Your explanation to a small child regarding those pictures is inappropriate and, in my opinion, just plain wrong. Many people disagree with the stance you take. Forcing parents into the position of having to explain those images, and your behavior in displaying them, to young children is, in my mind, just as reprehensible as having to explain the Westboro folks.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:01 pm
  19. Paul2 says:

    Student says:
    I'm sure it did happen. I simply challenged you on the name calling and psychoanalysis. I've never seen people more judgmental than those purporting to be religious. What happened to judge not?

    Student,
    When a person aims a moving vehicle in your direction you have every right to judge what their motives were. Your blind support for abortion causes you to deny that this person was almost certainly acting of anger to our peaceful pro-life protesting. Your analysis of the situation is crass are ludicrous.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
  20. Paul2 says:

    Student, some of the people who Iv'e met that do spew pro-abort philosophy are licensed therapists. Does that make you fell better. Do you support killing babies cause it is less of a drain on the earths resources to kill them before they are born?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:25 pm
  21. Paul2 says:

    Student, it doesn't take a therapist to state that a person who points out that the driver of a car who aims it at people in peaceful prayer is mentally unstable. And it doesn't tale a psychologist to know that pro-abort's do exist and that they are not the same thing as a pro-choice person. What does it take to be called pro-abort? One type of pro-abort person that I have come across is the person who “promotes abortion” for the singular purpose that it is less of a burden on society and the earths resources as a whole. That is a self-serving pro-abort position. It is not about woman's choice. It’s rationale is about killing the baby for the "good" of society. And it is pro-abort.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
  22. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    If a person thinks that abortion should be legal because it saves the earths resources from being overused would you call them pro-choice or pro-abort?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:32 pm
  23. Student says:

    Paul2,
    I'm terribly sorry about my crass and ludicrous position. Furthermore, I'm sorry I felt the least bit bad for you and your children. I must have been too busy thinking about how I can promote abortions for all women and young girls. But hey, that's how we mentally deranged pro-abort folks are……

    You keep in your camp and I'll keep in mine. Let's not bother trying to find any real solutions. Go on back to your name-calling and judgmental nature now and we won't discuss further.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
  24. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    I always thought pro-choice meant a "pro" a woman's
    right to choose. Are you redefining it? Some people support the legalization of abortion for reasons other than a wonan's right to choose, do you deny that?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
  25. Paul2 says:

    The devil can't stand the light. Run back into the darkness with your pro-abort hordes and heathen.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
  26. Paul2 says:

    The Devil cannot stand the Truth. Prayer and the Truth are our strongest weapons in the war for the protection of the unborn.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
  27. Student says:

    Paul2,
    And the uneducated and bigoted can't be bothered with rational discussion. Name calling is so much easier — it doesn't tax the brain as much as thinking for yourself.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
  28. Paul2 says:

    The ones who support abortion as a part of a genoicide and cleansing of the poor who would drain the workds resources. Those are the scary ones. I have no problem dialoguing with people about a woman's right to choose. Pro-aborts would love to decieve us and get pro-choice people to support their agenda. But I got knews for you brothers and sisters. NOT on my watch

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
  29. Student says:

    Paul2,
    Do you have an instant message account with Yahoo? Do you REALLY want to discuss this? If so, I'm happy to do it real time. I'm at law_reseach_student@yahoo.com

    Feel free to send me an IM and I'll be happy to discuss IF that's what you really want to do.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:52 pm
  30. Paul2 says:

    Student, lets hear sme open and rational debate about wether pro-abort people exist. You seem to be avoiding those posts.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:52 pm
  31. Paul2 says:

    And let's do it in the light. Right here, right now where everybody can see it.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
  32. Student says:

    Paul,
    I have my serious doubts that such people exist, but won't rule it out entirely. There are people all over the world who want to do some pretty rotten things — many in the name of religion. Do I think they're the majority? No, I don't. If they exist, my "guesstimate" is that they make up less than 1%. Are you going to tell me it's the majority or even half?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:55 pm
  33. Paul2 says:

    Student, now at least you are changing your stance in the right direction. Did I jsut hear you say that there "could be" such a thing as a pro-abort? Now can you bring yourself to take the next step and say that their IS such a thing as a pro abort?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
  34. Student says:

    There are people who are PL that murder others and bomb clinics. Now, given that, should I assume that MOST people who are PL hold that view? Should I call them zealots and whack jobs? Should I go around saying how crazy and mentally unbalanced you are for believing in an invisible man in the sky? I think it would be pretty damn rude — and not particularly truthful. BUT, it would certainly get a reaction and that, my friend, is what it appears that you want.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:58 pm
  35. Student says:

    Paul2,
    There "could be" an invisible pink unicorn in my kitchen. I doubt it — but it's possible.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 3:59 pm
  36. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    You have every logical reason to question the "pro-life" people who would go to war and kill others and I am sure the reasons and rationale would vary greatly. IN fact I encourage that kind of honesty in discussion and it should take place.

    Your problem seems to be that you think pro-aborts don't exist. I find it hard to believe that an educated adult who spends so much time researching these issues could state that pro-aborts are as rare as a pink unicorn. Stay tuned and I will dig up some of the scary pro-abort opinions I have seen people post in the past. You may be shocked to find that some were from licensed psychologists.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
  37. Student says:

    Paul,
    I wasn't specifically speaking of just those that "go to war" and kill others. I'm talking about abortion providers who have been killed by pro-lifers. I'm talking about the Army of God folks. See http://www.armyofgod.com for more info? However, I WILL NOT label every PL person by the behavior of these. You throw out the word "pro-abort" all the time. It is just as offensive as my calling you a PL whack job — which I have never done and will never do. I have yet to meet anyone who is pro-abortion.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
  38. Paul2 says:

    Before I do go dig up this information for you Student I would clarify our definitions of pro-choice and pro-abort. Can we begin by agreeing to two these simple statements.
    1) Pro-choice means a woman's right to choose.
    2) People who think abortion should be allowed for reasons other that a woman's right to choose should not be defined as "pro-choice". Therefore they are not pro-choice but pro-abort.

    If you can't agree to those statements then tell me why so I know what type of research into pro-aborts positions would be relevant to your point of view.

    Do you agree with those two statements?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:14 pm
  39. Student says:

    Pro-Choice is a woman's right to choose keeping a pregnancy, adoption, abortion or the use of contraceptives to keep from getting pregnant.

    Pro-Abort (to me) is someone who thinks abortion is a good thing — a goal — the thing to do (i.e., a nut).

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
  40. Student says:

    But you've yet to answer any question I've posed to you.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
  41. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    I was the one pro-life person who answered your questions on the previous blog that you were begging a pro-life person to answer. I see no rational for lying about me like that at start of our discussion here nless you actually forgot about the fact that you had already thanked me for my responses.

    Anyway, I am trying to keep you focused on our discussion as to defining pro-aborts and wether or not pro-aborts exist. You stated:

    "Pro-Abort (to me) is someone who thinks abortion is a good thing — a goal — the thing to do (i.e., a nut)."

    I don't agree with your definition. If a woman chooses to abort cause she thinks the abortion is a good thing, that would still be a "pro-choice" abortion. Therefore,
    for our discussion can we agree that the real definition of pro-abort is someone who believes abortion should be allowed for reasons other than a woman's right to choose. Would you agree? If not please clarify why not.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:33 pm
  42. Student says:

    Paul2 says: "I was the one pro-life person who answered your questions on the previous blog that you were begging a pro-life person to answer. I see no rational for lying about me like that at start of our discussion here nless you actually forgot about the fact that you had already thanked me for my responses."

    First of all, I hardly think I was "begging" anyone for an answer. Second, are you attempting to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative? By not answering my questions I was referring to the discussion we are CURRENTLY having. For reference, see the questions in posts 32 & 34. Third, I don't think that women choose "to abort cause she thinks the abortion is a good thing." Again, you define it as something positive to do and I simply don't hold that view. Finally, I do have final exams next week to study for……is there a point that you can get to quickly?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:41 pm
  43. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    The point is that in order to point out pro-abort people we first have to have a definition of pro-abort.
    You seem to think that a woman who has an abortion icause she thinks it is a "good" thing for her is not pro-choice but pro-abort. I disagree. Pro-choice people would still grant her the right to make that decision and they would look at her right to choose. It sounds like you would call her pro-abort.

    Can we begin by agreeing that there are people who want abortions legal for reasons other than supporting a woman's right to choose?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:48 pm
  44. Paul2 says:

    Those people are the pink unicorn in your kitchen.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:49 pm
  45. Paul2 says:

    And Student, your post 32 and post 34 did not ask me any questions……..????????????????

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:51 pm
  46. Student says:

    Why don't you tell me what you think those reasons are? Also, how about addressing the questions in Posts 32 & 34.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:52 pm
  47. Paul2 says:

    OK. they were sarcastic questions that you ansered yourself as part of your post. My answers would also obviously be NO.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:53 pm
  48. Student says:

    Paul2,
    The questions in those posts are the ones that end in question marks. Let me help you out by listing them below:

    Post 32: Are you going to tell me it's the majority or even half?

    Post 34: Now, given that, should I assume that MOST people who are PL hold that view? Should I call them zealots and whack jobs? Should I go around saying how crazy and mentally unbalanced you are for believing in an invisible man in the sky?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
  49. Student says:

    Ok, let's elaborate. Why not?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
  50. Paul2 says:

    One of the reasons people promote abortion is becuase the poor people in the world can't "afford" them and they would promote it as means of population/resource control.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:57 pm
  51. Paul2 says:

    Would that person, who could really care less about a wonan's right to choose, be considered pro-choice or ro-abort?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
  52. Student says:

    I assume what you're trying to say is that poor people can't afford children — not that they can't afford abortions? I think both are probably true statements.

    I prefer NOT to put words in your mouth so allow me to ask a question? Are you saying that a woman who has an abortion because she doesn't feel she can afford to raise a child is what you would term "pro-abort?"

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:00 pm
  53. Paul2 says:

    Another person is the mother who encourages her daughter to have an abortion cause of the burden it would be to both of them. Her reason for wanting the abortion is not to protect the girls right to a free choice, it is to get rid of a problem. Is this mother pro-choice or pro-abort?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:02 pm
  54. Student says:

    The mother in Post 53 is pro-choice.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:03 pm
  55. Paul2 says:

    No Student. LEt's be clear. A woman's right to choice is a woman's right to choice regardless of her reasons.
    But the people around them who encourage the abortion are pro-abort.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:03 pm
  56. Student says:

    I disagree. A person who encourages a woman to have an abortion is not necessarily pro-abortion, however, s/he may see it as the best alternative. Now, if we're talking about someone FORCING an abortion on someone else, that is illegal and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:05 pm
  57. Student says:

    My partner encouraged me to attend law school but, TRUST ME on this, he IS NOT pro-lawyer!!!

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:07 pm
  58. Paul2 says:

    WI very clearly stated to you that the mother in POST 53 is against the daughters desire to keep the child but she is encoraging her to abort anyway. How is that pro-choice? And it gets even worse when society as a whole promotes abortion just to get rid of the baby cause they perceive the baby as nothing more than a burden.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:08 pm
  59. Paul2 says:

    Student, you are not alone in your way of thinking. But no matter how you would twist it,that rationale is not pro-choice. If the pregnant girl want to keep her baby, a pro-choice person would offer her encouragement and aid to enable her choice. That is specifically one of the greatest differences between pro-aborts and pro-choice people.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:11 pm
  60. Student says:

    Because there are any # of things you don't discuss. Is that mother concerned about her daughter's physical health? I assumed (perhaps mistakenly?) that you meant a teenage daughter. If so, she has reason to worry about her physical and emotional health, her education and her future. That DOES NOT make her pro-abortion. She may see it as the best of a bunch of bad alternatives.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:12 pm
  61. Paul2 says:

    Student says:
    I disagree. A person who encourages a woman to have an abortion is not necessarily pro-abortion, however, s/he may see it as the best alternative.

    Student,
    you are not alone in your way of thinking. But no matter how you would twist it,that rationale is not pro-choice. If the pregnant girl wants to keep her baby, any pro-choice person would offer her encouragement and aid to enable her choice. That is specifically one of the greatest differences between pro-aborts and pro-choice people. Your words speak for themselves and I am sorry to say that they put you on the pro-abort side of things, not the pro-choice.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:14 pm
  62. Student says:

    This is what I mean about having a rational discussion, Paul. Now YOU get to decide the meaning of terms? Most people who are pro-choice hold my point of view. You labeling us as "pro-aborts" is the same as my labeling you a "PL whack job." Both are unfair and untrue. It's nothing more than an attack on the other side.

    I have friends who are PL and we manage to have discussions w/o personal attack. In fact, there are many things that we actually have in common. However, we talk — we don't define the other person in terms they don't agree with.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:19 pm
  63. Student says:

    Ok, wait a minute, I have to call you out on something you said. You stated, "If the pregnant girl wants to keep her baby, any pro-choice person would offer her encouragement and aid to enable her choice." Really? What if your teenage daughter wanted an abortion and someone offered "encouragement and aid to enable her choice?" Would that be ok with you?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:21 pm
  64. Paul2 says:

    Student, if you can convince yourselves that encoraging a person to go against their wishes is pro-choice then you should have no problem convincing yourself that there is a pink unicorn in your kitchen and he is eating the Flying Spaghetti monster.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:32 pm
  65. Paul2 says:

    Student says:
    Ok, wait a minute, I have to call you out on something you said. You stated, "If the pregnant girl wants to keep her baby, any pro-choice person would offer her encouragement and aid to enable her choice." Really? What if your teenage daughter wanted an abortion and someone offered "encouragement and aid to enable her choice?" Would that be ok with you?

    Student,
    No, why do you ask?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:36 pm
  66. Student says:

    Paul,
    If your daughter (or son) really wanted to drop out of high school — s/he really, really wants that…..would you encourage him to stay in school? Would you encourage him/her to go against his/her wishes?

    I haven't knocked around your religion — please don't kick the Flying Spaghetti Monster — bless his noodly appendage.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:39 pm
  67. Student says:

    Paul2: "No, why do you ask?"

    You honestly don't see any hypocrisy?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:42 pm
  68. Paul2 says:

    No, what hypocrisy are you talking about?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:52 pm
  69. Paul2 says:

    Dealing with minors "should" be a completely different set of rules when it comes to abortion. Pro-aborts should not be allowed to engage them.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:56 pm
  70. Paul2 says:

    And if the pro-abort is their legal guardian and they encourage abortion against the minors wishes then the legal guardian is pro-abort. So what?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:57 pm
  71. Student says:

    You stated, "If the pregnant girl wants to keep her baby, any pro-choice person would offer her encouragement and aid to enable her choice."

    I asked: "What if your teenage daughter wanted an abortion and someone offered 'encouragement and aid to enable her choice?' Would that be ok with you?"

    You said, "No."

    The hypocrisy lies in the fact that you wouldn't want someone counseling your daughter if she wanted an abortion, but would have no problem counseling someone else's daughter if she wanted to continue a pregnancy. I don't understand how you can not see that as hypocritical.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 5:58 pm
  72. Student says:

    Paul: "Dealing with minors "should" be a completely different set of rules when it comes to abortion. Pro-aborts should not be allowed to engage them."

    What if the person dealing with the minor is the minor's parent? Are you saying if the parent is pro-choice they "shouldn't be allowed to engage them?"

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:00 pm
  73. Paul2 says:

    Student says:
    Paul,
    If your daughter (or son) really wanted to drop out of high school — s/he really, really wants that…..would you encourage him to stay in school? Would you encourage him/her to go against his/her wishes?

    I would talk with them about it and give them the necessary counseling and support and self-sacrifice if necessary) to get through whatever issues tey were dealing with.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:00 pm
  74. Student says:

    So it's bad if I encourage my child to stay in school "against his wishes?"

    It's wrong for me to encourage my son NOT to join the military if it's "against his wishes?"

    Etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum……

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:01 pm
  75. Student says:

    Paul2: "I would talk with them about it and give them the necessary counseling and support and self-sacrifice if necessary) to get through whatever issues tey were dealing with."

    That's all well and good. Now, are you telling me that if they REALLY, REALLY wanted to drop out of high school you wouldn't STRONGLY ENCOURAGE them to continue their education?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:03 pm
  76. Paul2 says:

    Student says:
    The hypocrisy lies in the fact that you wouldn't want someone counseling your daughter if she wanted an abortion, but would have no problem counseling someone else's daughter if she wanted to continue a pregnancy. I don't understand how you can not see that as hypocritical.

    Student, The fact that I would not encourage her contact with abortionists is called being pro-life and there nis nothing hypocritical about it. Especially when it comes to minors. Notice I did not say that the mother who encourages her daughter to get an abortion even when the daughter expresses she wants to keep the baby would be a hypocrite. I saud she would be pro-abort. Those are two different things.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:06 pm
  77. Student says:

    The mother is neither pro-abort nor a hypocrite. She doing what she thinks is best for her daughter. You do not get to label her either.

    It IS hypocritical for you to say it's ok for you to counsel my teenager againt my beliefs but it is not ok for me to counsel your teenager against your beliefs. That is the meaning of hypocrisy.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:10 pm
  78. Paul2 says:

    I know it hurts you to think you are pro-abort but plain and simple, pro-choice people would not encourage abortion to a pregnant girl who wanted to keep her baby.
    And the fact that I would not appreciate somebody counseling my daughter to abortion is not hypocritical, it is pro-life and pro-family and pro-parental responsibility/rights.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:12 pm
  79. Paul2 says:

    Hypocrisy would be if I were to counsel your child to abortion and my child to have a baby. That would be hypocrisy. I am consistent. I could completely understand if a parent had angst towards my counseling their daughter against their wishes. So what?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:18 pm
  80. Student says:

    Paul,
    I have no problem with the fact that we disagree. No, it doesn't hurt me that YOU think I'm pro-abort. My sense of self is not that fragile, nor do I live by your definitions. If labeling and name calling make you feel better, knock yourself out. I choose not to engage in that type of behavior. It's self-serving and accomplishes nothing.

    "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left." — Margaret Thatcher

    You're obviously having a comprehension problem with what I'm saying. I'll try one final time. No, the fact that you don't want someone counseling your daughter abortion is abortion IS NOT hypocritical. The fact that you WOULD counsel someone else's child against what their parent's might want IS hypocritical. There is a difference. I'm sorry that you can't or won't see it.

    And on that note, I really do have some studying that requires my attention. I'll say a good word to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for you this evening. Have a pleasant night.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:21 pm
  81. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    I hope this has been eye-opening. I did not call you pro-abort to cause a rise or a reaction. You were under thge impression that pro-aborts did not exist, and now you agree that they do even if you don't agree that you hold their point of view. Bottom line is the people who encourage a mother to abort when she expresses wanting to keep the baby are not pro-choice, they are pro-abort. Enjoy your spaghetti dinner with the pink unicorn.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 6:27 pm
  82. Paul2 says:

    Student says:
    The fact that you WOULD counsel someone else's child against what their parent's might want IS hypocritical."
    Student,
    You say I WOULD counsel them against what their parents MIGHT want? How can it be hypocritical if you don't even know what the parents want?

    What is definitely hypocritical though is to say you are pro-choice and counsel the pregnant woman against her stated wishes. No doubt about the hypocrisy there.
    Pro-life people don't have that hypocrisy problem cause we are consistently pro-life.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 7:46 pm
  83. Me says:

    Paul2,
    I agree with you. They are pro-aborts. They are in favor of abortion remaining legal. That's pro-abortion.

    Student, I make no apologies for referring to someone as a pro-abort. If it is offensive to you, you may want to rethink you stance on being in favor of abortion remaining legal.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 7:52 pm
  84. Paul2 says:

    Student says:
    If labeling and name calling make you feel better, knock yourself out. I choose not to engage in that type of behavior. It's self-serving and accomplishes nothing.

    Student,
    It does help to label if the label fits and helps to differentiate people from other labels that they claim to go by. It's all part of bringing the deceitful pro-aborts out of from the pro-choice crowd to show them for what they are. You are the one who stated that it would be o.k. to counsel a pregnant girl who wanted to keep her baby that she should abort instead. That IS a MAJOR characteristic of the pro-abort platform. Sorry but you don't have the right to "choose" a label for yourself. It is your words and actions that define your label.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 7:54 pm
  85. Me says:

    This is sad…I just heard it on the radio today. It's regarding the parental notification law that was trying to be put into force in Illinios. Needless to say, it was defeated. Sad, sad day.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1979018/posts

    March 2nd, 2008 at 7:54 pm
  86. Paul2 says:

    Student, motives are very important in determining wether or not somebody is a hypocrite. If another adult is genuinely trying to help my daughter by counseling her that would be o.k. with me. So your claim f my hpocrisy is a HUGE stretch. It doesn't mean I am a hypocrite cause I don't WANT somebody counseling my daughter to kill her baby. Again, I don't want to resort to name calling but your postulations are ludicrous.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
  87. Paul2 says:

    Me,
    That ruling is not "likely" to stand. David Coar is the judge that has been overseeing this case and has been using political manuvering to keep it tied up in the United States District Court for Northern Illinois. If our State pursues this case it will likely win the ruling on appeal since there are already some 35 states with those laws being enforced.

    Anybody know how we can get rid of David Coar or is it a lifetime appointment?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 8:18 pm
  88. Student says:

    Federal judges are appointed by the President of the United States — they are lifetime appointments.

    Out of curiosity, what "political maneuvering" has Judge Coar been using? I deal with him regularly and he is a highly honorable man.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 9:26 pm
  89. Student says:

    Sorry Me, I am not pro-abortion regardless of what you or Paul may think. I am pro-choice. It's sad that you can't see a difference.

    March 2nd, 2008 at 9:28 pm
  90. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    Do you stand by what you said on your earlier post?
    Student says:
    I disagree. A person who encourages a woman to have an abortion is not necessarily pro-abortion, however, s/he may see it as the best alternative.

    How can you encourage a woman to abort a baby she wants and call yourself pro-choice?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 9:33 pm
  91. Paul2 says:

    Student, do you stand by your post 54 from earlier when you called post 53 a pro-choice woman? Here is Post 53
    again:
    Paul2 says:
    Another person is the mother who encourages her daughter to have an abortion cause of the burden it would be to both of them. Her reason for wanting the abortion is not to protect the girls right to a free choice, it is to get rid of a problem. Is this mother pro-choice or pro-abort?

    Student,
    YOU take the position stand this woman who wants to kill here daughters baby to get rid of a problem, as being pro-choice!! Do you really think that other pro-choice people would stand with you on that?

    March 2nd, 2008 at 9:58 pm
  92. Student says:

    Yes, Paul, I do take the position that she is pro-choice and, for the record, I spoke with 6 people I work with (it's a pretty conservative place here) and they also agree that it is very much a pro-choice position. That mother may very well, in fact, be worried about her daughter's physical health, emotional health, education, etc. In fact, wasn't it you who said that a parent should be involved because minors aren't mature enough to make those decisions on their own? Does that only apply if the minor's parent agrees with you?

    As to the pro-abort issue, if you want to keep calling me that fine. Repeating a non-truth doesn't make it a fact — unless, of course, you're George Bush. However, I won't engage you if you insist on the name calling.

    March 3rd, 2008 at 8:41 am
  93. Paul2 says:

    Student,
    I don't know how you explained it to your six friends at work but if a pregnant girl/woman expresses her desire to keep her baby to you, and ycounsel her to abort, you are pro-abort. Just how do you manage to refute that logic?
    To me the definition of pro-choice is – support a woman's right to choose and supporting her in her choice regardless of what her choice may be. In the scenario above the pregnant women has expressed her desire to keep the child and the mother encouraging her to abort anyway. That sinmply does not fit the above definition.

    It could not be any clearer. What kind of Kool-aid do you drink before you convince yourselves that? Sorry but I need to follow logic here. This girl has expressed her desire to keep her child. Instead of helping this girl facilitate the things necessary to keep child you believe it is pro-choice to counsel her against her stated wishes. Do these friends of yours work at PP with you? Cause that is really scary if you are seeing girls who want to keep their babies and "counseling" them to abortion instead. I'll bet most people would be startled and offended if they found out PP was acting that way towards pregnant women who comes in looking for help with continuing her pregnancy.

    Ask your friends to come up with a definition of pro-choice that allows them to counsel a girl against her wishes. I would love to understand how your logic works here.

    March 3rd, 2008 at 10:33 am
  94. Eric Scheidler says:

    Paul2 and Student: I request that you take this discussion, which is evidently of interest only to yourselves, to a private forum such as e-mail.

    If you like, you can e-mail me at ERIC [at] PROLIFEACTION [dot] ORG; if both of you do so, I will put you in touch with each other via e-mail.

    Comments are now closed on this thread.

    March 3rd, 2008 at 10:36 am

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