Comments on: Wednesday Open Thread: Pre-Primary Voice

By: jopajpaddd

jopajpaddd — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 03:20:17 +0000

jopajpaddd
jopajpaddd

By: Paul2

Paul2 — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 04:08:11 +0000

Student, the book I have is Webster's dictionary:

theist - belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race.

Which of our founding fathers was not a theist?

By: Student

Student — Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:46:25 +0000

Sorry, Paul2, but I can't even agree that they were "all God-fearing theists" as many were deists. You may want to try Gary Wills' book, "Head & Heart." Dr. Wills is an adjunct professor of history at Northwestern University and even has an honorary degree from The College of the Holy Cross (one of the oldest Roman Catholic colleges in the US). If you have a book that you think proves the points you are trying to make, I'd be happy to check it out.

By: Paul2

Paul2 — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:39:00 +0000

The purpose of our founding fathers was to ensure that government did not interfere with or pass laws that would hunder a oersons abililty to express their faith
period. They were all definitely theistic and most accepted Jesus teachings as a sound moral guidline by which to live, which in and of itself, must have influenced them heavily. I guess I should have have said they were all God-fearing theisits who agreed mostly that government should be recused from exercising any form of coercive influence towards any persons religous beliefs. The do staunchly and universally acknowledge God, and as such, intentionally did not espouse Christianity or any other religion as being favored by our Constitution. Though a heavily Christian influence and agreement with Christ's teachings on morality were known to be present in most of their personal belief systems.

By: Student

Student — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:35:37 +0000

Paul2,

Many Americans did practice Christianity, but so also did many believe in deistic philosophy. Most of our influential Founding Fathers, although they respected the rights of other religionists, held to deism and Freemasonry tenets rather than to Christianity.

I do not dispute anything you said in the above posts, however, that is a far cry from "It is a fortunate thing that our Constitution was written by God fearing Christians who foresaw the need to protect our rights to put God first and foremost in everything we do."

Furthermore, please find in the Treaty of Tripoli (Article 11) the following: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

This is a clear admission by the United States in 1797 that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all U.S. Treaties do (see the Constitution, Article VI, Sect.2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all TREATIES made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.")

Although the Treaty of Tripoli under agreement only lasted a few years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.

By: Paul2

Paul2 — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:04:37 +0000

Student, Although I was actually surprised that not all did profess the Divinity of Jesus, I did find nevertheless that heavily influenced by the Christian religion which was prevalent all aroung them and most found reading Scripture a worthwhile endeavor and most thought Jesus an explar or moral authority. The Word made flesh.

By: Paul2

Paul2 — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:53:26 +0000

George Washington:
In the copies of General Orders posted while he was General of the Continental Army (1775-79), Washington implored his subordinates to forbid swearing and drinking and also, to attend to matters of religious exercise. In a letter to the governors of the states on disbanding the army, June 8, 1783, Washington writes,

"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation."

By: Paul2

Paul2 — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:51:15 +0000

Thomas Jefferson:
The quote of Jefferson (above) is part of a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association and is a response to their concern that the United States government was about to declare another denomination as the "official" church of the country. Jefferson wrote to the Danbury (Conn.) Baptists on January 1, 1802, "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." 3. The reader should be astute enough to notice that this "wall" is intended to prevent the State from intruding into the domain of the church, not visa versa. In fact, when the beliefs of the founding fathers are studied in some depth, it is evident that they all believed that men needed protection FROM government, especially in matters of faith! Jefferson wrote to Samuel Miller on Jan 23, 1808, "Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority is religious discipline, has been delegated to the general government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority."

By: Paul2

Paul2 — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:48:50 +0000

John Adams:
An entry from his personal diary sums up the religious convictions of John Adams. Although much more is written (by him and about him) the entry dated February 22, 1756, puts it in perspective. "Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law-book, and every member would be obliged, in conscience, to temperence and frugality and industry; to justice and kindness and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love and reverence towards Almighty God. In this commonwealth, no man would impair his healht by gluttony, drunkenness, or lust; no man would sacrifice his most precious time to cards or any other trifling and mean amusement; no man would steal, or lie, in any way defraud his neigbor, but would live in peace and good will with all men; no man would blaspheme hi Maker or profane hi worship; but a rational and manly, a sincere and unafected piety and devotion would reign in all hearts. What a utopia; what a paradise would this region be!"

By: Paul2

Paul2 — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:45:55 +0000

Student, James Madison:
Some historical background would be helpful at this point. Madison had a dispute with Patrick Henry over Henry's proposal to levy a tax to support teachers of the Christian Religion. In 1785 Madison wrote Memorial and Remonstrance in which he makes the case for keeping Christianity free from intanglement with the state. He saw very clearly that religious "liberty" would be compromised if placed under the dominion of the state. "It was because Madison exalted religion that he favored religious liberty. Since he revered the Christian religion above all others, he wanted it to flourish in its purity, free from the corruption that inevitably came with state support." 5.

Madison's Christian influence is understandable in light of his upbringing and education. He was raised in a strong Episcopalian home where both parents were active in the church. He went to the College of New Jersey (now Princeton) which was then a very orthodox, conservative Christian school.