Live blog from the ZBA hearing tonight
Posted by Eric and Matt on Monday, January 7th, 2008
Tonight: The next Zoning Board of Appeals (ZBA) hearing begins at 7:00 p.m. at Aurora City Hall (map). Wear your "Planned Parenthood LIES to You"—or pick one up when you get there.
If you can't be at the hearing, tune in here for live blogging starting about 6:45 p.m.
The ZBA will rule on three important motions tonight. First is the city's Motion to Dismiss—they want the ZBA to refuse to hear our appeal on the grounds that it's untimely and out of their jurisdiction. If the ZBA grants this motion, the hearings are over and we'll have to take our case to state.
If the ZBA denies the Motion to Dismiss, they will go on to rule on two motions from our side: A Motion for Subpoenas (which would allow us to interview key officials) and a Motion to Stay the Certificate of Occupancy (which would withdraw Planned Parenthood's occupancy permit, and require them to shut down). Exciting stuff!
Check out these brief videos for a taste of what tonight's hearing should be like:
- Peter Breen: The city is trying to strip the ZBA of all authority.
- Tom Brejcha: We have right on our side.
- Tom Brejcha: The city admits PP property is improperly zoned.
6:55 p.m. The ZBA members are seated, and I see about 50 pro-lifers in the gallery so far. More Planned Parenthood supporters than before—all of seven. Still awaiting the arrival of our attorneys, who are fighting through traffic from Chicago. [ERIC]
7:05 p.m. Peter Breen and Tom Brejcha have arrived. Commissioner Truax has opened the meeting and the roll has been called. City attorney Alayne Weingartz is accompanied today by outside counsel Lance Malina, who argued before federal judge Charles Norgle back in Septemer that the City should be allowed to conclude what he called a "zoning investigation" without issuing an occupancy permit to Planned Parenthood. My guess is he's here to contradict our contention that his words before Judge Norgle show the city was still making zoning determinations on through September. [ERIC]
Commissioner Truax reviews the previous decisions of the ZBA and then asks for the attorneys to comment on the Motion to Dismiss that they will rule on today. Weingartz introduces Malina and then summarizes her motion: the ZBA is not the proper body before whom we should make this appeal, and our October 2 filling is months—not days—after the last zoning decision was made.
Weingartz is arguing that only decisions by the zoning administrator (Ed Sieben) can be appealed, not decisions by anyone else in the city (such as, I suppose she means, Mayor Weisner's decision to issue the occupancy permit on October 1).
Weingartz also insists that what we're really asking is for the ZBA to overturn the November 2006 Planning and Development Committee's decision to approve the final plan. She ignores, of course, that that final plan was approved in the belief that a for-profit medical office building was coming in, not a not-for-profit health service like Planned Parenthood. [ERIC]
7:10 p.m. Chris Wilson, counsel for PP and Gemini started off by stating that his clients agreed with Alayne and the city's position. He said it has been a difficult process, but that there had been investigation of this matter and no impropriety was found.
He reminds the ZBA that the important date in this matter is October, 2006, when the original, and he claims only, zoning decision was made. Since the time for appeal has elapsed, the ZBA has no authority to deal with this matter.
He closes his comments by alleging that what our attorneys are upset with is not the zoning of the property, but the "constitutionally protected activities" that take place on the PP premises. He joins the city in asking that the case be dismissed on grounds of lack of jurisdiction. [Matt]
7:15 p.m. Brejcha starts out with clarity: "Mr. Wilson is wrong." He says this has nothing to do with Roe v. Wade, but with zoning . "Because they perform abortions they believe they're somehow immune or exempt from zoning laws that apply to every other building or citizen."
"Gemini is not in that facility now, another entity is in that facility. Gemini concedes that it concealed its identity." The assumption was that multiple tenants would occupy the building, and decisions were made on that basis.
Alayne Weingartz interrupts Brejcha to object to his speaking about zoning violations, since they are in a brief only filed today—he should only address the Motion to Dismiss. PP attorney Chris Wilson concurs. Brejcha responds that he's addressing Weingartz's contention that no zoning decisions have been made since late 2006.
Brjecha emphasizes that the City was making zoning decisions—about what the zoning category is, what kinds of medical procedures could be performed, etc. right on into October. [ERIC]
7:25 p.m. Brejcha continued by arguing that a BB district requires a change to the zoning code before a non-profit medical service could occupy this property. This is NOT a tertiary detail as the Weingartz and the ZBA are continually arguing.
PP got money from the state that will cost the state $2mil. over a few years. This makes it a significant zoning issue. This is not an insignificant detail.
Weingartz once again complains that this material was only handed to her this evening and should not be discussed. Ms. Truax agrees that this does not have to do with the issue at hand.
Brejcha brings it back to the core issue: the original zoning was for a for profit use. PP is a non-profit use.
Surrounding neighbors had the right to have notice and a hearing. Since it's BB, it was absolutely prohibited for them to be there unless, with the permission of the city council, they changed the city zoning code.
He continued that it's a matter of Aurora ordinances, it's a matter of Illinois law. This is the reason this board exists.
There was improper zoning which required hearings or a change in the zoning code. [MATT]
Brejcha: "To dismiss this appeal now, with all deference, would be an abdication of the responsibilty invested in this board." He goes on to quote Justice Brandeis: "The best disinfectant is sunlight." The ZBA should allow this appeal to go forward and investigate the zoning decisions made, when and why they were made, and whether the laws were upheld.
There should be no hasty decision, like the hasty October 1 decision to issue the occupancy permit, but a full airing of our objections, "raised in good faith", to the process surrounding Gemini/Planned Parenthood. [ERIC]
7:30 p.m. Now Truax asks the City and Planned Parenthood to respond. Weingartz insists that the City admits nothing, and no matter how many times Brejcha says they have, that doesn't make it so. Chris Wilson remarks that this has not been a hasty process, with more than 1700 pages filed and hours of hearings, etc. Nor has Gemini ever admitted they deceived the City. He urges the ZBA "not to take jurisdiction where there is none."
The ZBA adjourns to executive session to deliberate and make a decision.
8:05 p.m. Commissioner Truax resumes the hearing and asks Commissioner Cole to present the motion the ZBA will vote on.
Cole moves that the ZBA grant the city's motion to dismiss our appeal for timeliness (no zoning determination by the zoning administrator was made within the time required for an appeal, and deny the city's motion to refer the matter to the building official.
The ZBA votes unanimously in favor of this motion. They've shut us down. They adjourn, to applause from the cadre of Planned Parenthood supporters.
Summary: The ZBA shut down our appeal today. They agreed with Alayne Weingartz that only decisions by the zoning administrator can be appealed to them, and that therefore we were many months too late with our appeal.
What this means for us: We're taking our case to state court. Stay tuned!
Watch that Alayne!!! "her side" brings up non-issues to get an expected response in order to create confusion…(she's kinda good at that)
Good thing our attorney's are smarter!!!
(keep praying for ZBA board!)
January 7th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Great coverage, Eric. There are hundreds of people checking this blog every few minutes. Thank you!
January 7th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
My prayer: "HIS will be done!" God Bless you for your faithfulness to this issue.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Steve Trombly admitted he deceived the city in his infamous quote. I hope the ZBA remembers that!
January 7th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Excellent prayer, Cathy!
January 7th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
"The best disinfectant is sunlight."
Love it!
(blood sucking vampires don't like the sunlight)
January 7th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Psalm 7 is a request for justice….vs. 14 thru 16 states…"He who is pregnant with evil and conceives trouble gives birth to disillusionment. He who digs a hole and scoops it out falls into the pit he has made. The trouble he causes recoils on himself; his violence comes down on his own head".
Praise God for his word shall never go void. Eric, our continual prayers are with you and yours this evening.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
that's it?
January 7th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
I'm still trying to figure out how we could appeal something in a "timely manner" when the truth wasn't known in a timely manner. Hmmm, kind of a Catch-22 isn't it? Well… on to the state court.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
That's disappointing. If we had no idea that Gemini was actually a non-profit within the time the decision was made (and that lack of knowledge was because of them lying in their applications), how can they hold the statute of limitations against us?
January 7th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Better if it goes to state court anyway, IMO….it's just going round & round in circles Aurora & it's making me dizzy!
The state courts know the law & will make Aurora enforce it!
God bless you all! You're doing a great job.
I don't hear the "fat lady" singing yet!
January 7th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
I agree Laura! Maybe it's time that Aurora be held accountable in a higher court - but they would be anyway, sooner or later, wouldn't they? Hmmm.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA LAHOO-ZA-HERS!!!!!!! You guys are gonna get shut down everywhere you go. Yeah Planned Parenthood!!!!!!
January 7th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Cathy,
I'm excited!
Aurora is a joke. You know, one of those you don't laugh at when you hear the punch line?
January 7th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
God is our strenth and salvation. No matter what happens in our state court or anywhere else, we will overcome. This is a cause worth fighting! People, we are fighting for human life. We are not clay. We will prevail. Prey for PP supporters; that God will reveal truth to them.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
But, but, Melinda! They are killing thousands of baybees there, every day except Sunday! Mammas are killing their baybees! If we don't stop them, evil Satan will be our King!
Maybe we need better lawyers?
January 7th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
and Mondays, Flick.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Well said, Steve! Poor Melinda thinks this is about us! This is the Lord's battle and the results are in HIS Hands! The farther this goes, the more people will see what He can do!!!!
We are soldiers in His army and are proud to keep up the fight!
January 7th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
It's no suprise that an appointed board is going to try to cover the city's behind on this one. I am suprised it took this long. It has always been inevitable that this would go to court, and now we can get on with it.
Looks like two of the seven PP supporers are out looking for a little amusement, eh?
January 7th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Nothing fails like prayer…and Families Against Planned Parenthood.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Phil 4:4 "Rejoice in the Lord always, I will say it again: Rejoice!"
January 7th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Cecile Richards herself said she hasn't seen a protest like this one before. That is not a failure. The word is getting out about what PP stands for, and even if this actual battle is lost, the opposition to PP is growing. It's just a matter of time.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Ooooo, you keep on a a-prayiin' and a-protestin' Abortion ain't going anywhere.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Melinda this isn't a failure. We prayed for His will to be done! Apparently, His plan is bigger than ours! It's sad that you think prayer fails! Maybe this is happening for YOU to see what answered prayer is! There's nothing better!!!!!!!!!!!
January 7th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
This is a joke.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Melinda… I've just added you to my prayer list. Every morning when I say my Rosary, you will be included in my intentions. God bless you, and may His Spirit enlighten you.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Yes Renee. There are many, many battles to be fought in this great war. The Melinda Dillons of our times have not seen truth. Pray that this person finds Christ this very evening! It IS just a matter of time. I've read the Book. In the end, we win.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Cathy: check out this link:
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/NonSequitur02_0910.jpg
January 7th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Steve,
AMEN! Isn't so cool that we know the end of the story? Either way, God will prevail!
(BTW pc'ers…that's "our Heavenly Father"…not Gemini!
January 7th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Ahh… what an interesting response.
Good night Melinda. May you come to know the truth some day. May angels wrap their wings around you and keep you warm, and may God lay a gentle hand on your heart, and may all the anger you feel seep away and leave you open to His word.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
Good night, Melinda.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
I have a few questions. What is going on with the parental notification issue? And, should we go back to the city council meetings and let them know how we feel about the travisity that was the ZBA tonight. I am not sure but, I feel like the ZBA was a little "over their heads" tonight. They wanted out of this whole thing. And, the city attorney gave them an easy out. Which for me begs the question…. who is trying to cover their tracks? Who knew what? We may never truly know but, be assured God does.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Becca - End of February to the GO committee.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Only a brilliant blogger would post a link to a weekday newspaper cartoon to make a point.
And here I was using "words".
January 7th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
I am a former born-again xian. I "knew" his love and years later realized it was all make believe. Good luck, Fundies. It's been over thirty years and you guys have been played by everyone in government to their own ends and where has it gotten you? Four thousand baybees will be "slaughtered" tomorrow. But, keep up the good work. At least it keeps you off the streets and out of trouble.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Melinda,
You're an attention-seeker. Did you get your fill?
January 7th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
But Melinda, it isn't keeping us off the streets. Have you been to New York and Oakhurst?
And, I am heartened that you are talking about your faith again. I am encouraged to pray all the more for your conversion. Seriously. Good night.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Melinda,
I feel so sad about whatever happened to cause you to turn your back on the Lord. Sometimes our view of Him is changed because of the actions of people around us. Remember, He is God and we are all sinners. Don't let your hurt cause you to miss out on His Love! Turn back to Him. He is waiting for you right where you left Him and His arms are wide open waiting to welcome you home. I too will pray for you and I mean what I say, (not like your cartoon.) Also, you used the correct word for the death of 4,000 babies - it is slaughter!
January 7th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
The militant "christian" religionists who are both against contraception as well as abortion get shut down…again. YES! Victory for Planned Parenthood and all of us who support free choice! And failure for the biblical american compulsory pregnancy agenda. As the McDonald's ad goes, "I'm LOVIN it."
January 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Hey Linda, thanks for Christian Cliches #s4 and 5:
4. "SALVATION IS OBVIOUSLY A VERY SORE SUBJECT FOR YOU - YOU ARE SO FULL OF HATE AND CONTEMPT"
Your arguments against born again fundamentalism make sense. I'll have to change the focus of our discussion.
——————————————————————————–
5. "SOMEONE IN THE CHURCH MUST HAVE CAUSED YOU A GREAT DEAL OF HURT FOR YOU TO FEEL THIS WAY"
You couldn't have possibly left Christianity just because you studied the Bible and you think you found inconsistencies and errors in it.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Ocean blathered,
"the biblical american compulsory pregnancy agenda"
huh?
..and
WOW!
January 7th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
From: Linda
Remember, He is God and we are all sinners. Don't let your hurt cause you to miss out on His Love! Turn back to Him. He is waiting for you right where you left Him and His arms are wide open waiting to welcome you home.
************
Why would I or anyone else who kicked the spiritual toxic waste pit of "christian" fundamentalism OUT of our life want to "turn back" to it. Some of us, myself included, prefer FREEDOM over slavery.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Ocean blathered,
"the biblical american compulsory pregnancy agenda"
huh?
..and
WOW!
*************
It's an accurate description of the mindset of so-called "christians" with the agenda of making both contraception AND abortion illegal. Does that help?
January 7th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works, and that my soul knows very well. Psalm 139:14. This is my prayer for the hurting: Lord, so often these people feel unlovable. Yet Your Word declares that they are the work of Your hands. You have said that they are wonderfully made. I pray that they will choose Your truth over their feelings. I pray that they will choose to believe You treasure them.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Ocean,
Yes, it helped, but it's quite a stereotypical stretch, don't you think?
January 7th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Ab Laura,
So, you would like to see contraception available to all those who would like it and the ability for any woman to choose to abort unwanted pregnancies? Cool.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Why would any moral human being want this in their community or anywhere on Gods earth?
January 7th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Here is the editorial I sent to some local papers after the failed ZBA of Aurora rendered themselves impotant, which I am praying all of Melinda's partners have done so she doesn't have to deal with the aftermath.
By the way it is comming up on the 35th anniversary of Roe v. Wade and 50,000,000 Killed Lives.
The City of Mights!
An effective way to describe Aurora, IL.
The City's future generation both living and unborn, what they might have been?
What our young adults and children might have learned about responsibility, instead they will be allowed to file for sexual bankruptcy as many times as they feel with the ease of Abortion in Aurora?
What Aurora's City institutional infrastructure might have been if those entrusted with writing and enforcing Zoning Permits and Occupancies would stand up and follow the Ordinances of the City of Aurora?
If The Aurora Zoning Board of Appeals had the cahones to buck up to the pressure and function as they were designed, we might be optimistic about government at the local level?
What if we banded together of Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, etc, etc, to stand up for what is right according to our teachings with respect for life. In a world where we all have to be different for marketing and obedience, what might the world be like? Might the City of Mights again be the City of Lights?
Freedom without responsiblity is Chaos
January 7th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Melinda,
No, and not cool.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Ocean, we are all slave to sin. It is only through Jesus Christ, the true God and true Man, that we may come to know the Father because He is our Savior and frees us from that sin. He died on the cross to pay for ALL of our sins and suffered through hell to save us all from ever having to know that. Yes He did it for even you Ocean, and even you Melinda.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Melinda, Ocean,
We are only adding to our numbers and our commitment to end the slaughter yis only getting stronger. But thanks for showing your true colors, a lot of PC'ers on this blog may turn against. Unlike you, most don't enjoy basking in the blood and screams of the women and children maimed in the name of "choice". Your days are numbered. It seems to me that the Supreme Court recently overturned your right to deliver babies to their chest and puncture their skulls and suck their brains out. You'll have to deliver them for one another at home and do it for each other to get that kind of rush again.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
It is obviusly the devil trying to mock us. It is easy to regognize. It will mock our prayers, it will try to seep anger and disent, it will try to discourage us in out fight on God's side. It is the temptor, the liar, rejoices at our failures as Christians. It wants more babies sacrificed. We need to pray for PP followers, because is not PP they actually following.
Our faith is strenghtened and we have more reason to pray harder. More than ever! It is prime time to replace anger with joy, turn dissapointment into hope, submit our will to God's will for the glory of Jesus Christ. By the Grace of God, In Jesus We Trust forever!
January 7th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
Watching this process closely, I originally thought Planned Parenthood intentionally deceived officials of the City of Aurora and their constituents. We were all victims of a very clever deception by a lying, deceiving corporation willing to do anything to achieve their evil goals.
It is NOW VERY CLEAR to me that only the residents of our City were the victims of this obvious deception originated by Planned Parenthood and sustained by our City Officials.
They cannot have it both ways. Our elected officials and those they manage either knew Gemini was a deception and they conciously supported it; or they didn't know and therefore are incompetent.
Based upon continued actions by the City, it is certainly obvious to me they knew of the deception and collaborated with PP to deceive the public they serve. If they did NOT know, the City would not defend PP as they are. The City would NOT object to opening the entire process for review. If the City has managed this affair by the rule of law there should be nothing to hide and nothing to fear. But our City officials hide and are fearful.They fight an open review. They will deny us an open review of the process because THEY agreed to participate with PP in the deception of the residents of Aurora and they don't want us to find out. There can be no other explaination.
Either way, in addition to fighting this issue in the courts, we MUST as citizens work to remove every elected official in our city who allowed this deception to take place and those who continue to defend it.
These people work for US. They denied us our voice. We were NOT permitted to be heard before PP came to our city and we have been deceived by PP AND our elected officials. They MUST hear us at the next election and all the elections that follow until everyone of them are FIRED!
As we show our strength on the street, as we show our strength in our prayers, as we show our strength in the courts of law, we must also show our strength in the ballot box.
I have called my alderman to assure him I will be working very hard to insure this is his last term if this deception of the public is allowed to stand. I have also emailed and called the Mayor with the same message. Perhaps it would help if many more of us did the same. As far as I am concerned, if this deception is allowed to survive, they are ALL guilty in this fraud imposed upon the public, or incompetent for not knowing, not doing enough to stop it, and worse allowing it to maintain. FIRE every one of them. WE have that power!!!
January 7th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Vita,
Thanks for the post. I agree with you and I am looking for ways I can keep my tax dollars from supporting these killers. It really troubles me.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
What is absolutely clear to me by these rulings is that the ZBA (in their capacity as Aurora residents – and contracted members) have chosen to punt. In their first ruling, they chose to agree with the motion to dismiss. And by itself, this ruling means that they agree that the zoning decision was only made in 2006. Ok, now comes the motion to transfer to Building Code. This means the building code board of appeals will hear the arguments regarding the number of parking spaces, setbacks etc. No rather than honoring this request – which seems like the right thing to do (and the pro-life attorneys would probably agree to) they chose to deny this request. Why? Simple, with all the heat coming down on these members (who are paid $10 per meeting – the same as the building code board of appeals members) and the large amount of paperwork before them (some 1,700 pages worth) they would rather have the state court sift all this out. (At a huge cost to the pro-lifers and the citizens of Aurora) So in one quick ruling, they chose to keep the heat off the Aurora officials and make a state court decide the matters. They punted. And it’s disgraceful to be an Aurora resident and see this happen in our own community. I look forward to reading the minutes (if there are any minutes of their executive session.)
In the end, I can’t believe they even took this matter seriously.
Oh well, it’s off to state court.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
David G —
Hear, hear on your post. I'm very keen on getting these fools out of office. Payback, as they say, is a b**ch.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Yo, Pauly, abortion AIN'T A-GOIN' ANYWHERE. Oh, and since there is no god there is no devil. I am responsible for my actions as you are responsible for yours.
My siggy from another board reads like this:
Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.
If you people would realize that this is it and you are not "going on" to somewhere else for some kind of reward, this world would be a better place.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
David G…..Well spoken and I agree with you wholeheartedly.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:58 pm
From: NewAurora
Ocean, we are all slave to sin. It is only through Jesus Christ, the true God and true Man, that we may come to know the Father because He is our Savior and frees us from that sin. He died on the cross to pay for ALL of our sins and suffered through hell to save us all from ever having to know that. Yes He did it for even you Ocean, and even you Melinda.
*************
Regarding your "we are all slave to sin" fundie slogan, speak for YOURSELF, please. Sin is nothing more than a religious concept, which I am delighted to be free from. I kicked the spiritual maximum-security prison environment of gods, religions and churches out my door over two decades ago, and have been much happier ever since.
As a young single woman in my twenties in NYC, I visited Planned Parenthood not just once, but several times over the years I lived there. They provided all the answers to my health and reproduction questions, and BC when I needed it. Thank goodness there were no fundie protesters back then to harass and intimidate women from using their excellent services.
"Christian" religionists just don't like PP because they offer freedom in the ways of sexual and reproductive choice, like NOT getting stuck with unwanted pregnancies because some of us chose to enjoy sex. Fine, they don't have to patronize PP, it's your right not to. But you don't have the right to try and ban everyone else from using their services if we choose to do so. A fact which the ZBA just reminded you of when they voted against you. Victory is sweet.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Melinda, what is the point of your life?
Do you not need a point?
Drugs, Sex, and Rock and Roll? Good time plastic bannana fun?
Where do you draw your values from.
Who do you answer to?
Are you a Femanist?
Believe men are the root of all Evil….Wait there is no Evil for you…Ummm root of all bad?
From where do you draw strength?
You sound young, how old are you?
I believe that passion is a good thing, I would just like to find out more about you. Express my opinions and take yours in, but this jabbing isn't doing any of us good. So if you don't want to open up…..I suggest everyone ignore Melinda and her pal Ocean.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Hey Ocean, do believe that we should all have the right to claim bankruptcy as many times at any time we want?
January 8th, 2008 at 12:09 am
Yo, Dan,
We are born, we live and we die. While we are alive, IMCHO, we should live by the mores of the particular society in which we live and not try to force that template onto any other societies. I draw strength from myself and my family. I am a forty-three year old soccer mom in the burbs of Chicago. I have two great kids and a loving husband. I drive a mini-van, I have a dog, two fish and a canary. I am a law abiding, tax paying voter. I am a bleeding heart liberal feminist. I don't drink or do drugs or smoke. I can't drink coffee because it give me a headache. I cannot stand it when seemingly intelligent nice people get suckered into religion. But, I don't try to change their minds. I just wish they would actually use some critical thinking and actually read the Bible and see that is really is a bunch of hooey written by bronze-age men with no scientific method so they made up some great stories to try and get folks to go along with their rules.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:19 am
Oh … and by the way, it is very important to remember these issues in the upcoming national election. What candidate will you support?
Ask the candidate or learn of their position on Roe vs. Wade. What kind of judges will they bring to our Supreme Court? Will the candidate work to deny Planned Parenthood Federal funding if elected?
Please, please, please VOTE!!! Do you think Obama, Durbin, Blagojevich, Weisner and many other elected officials represent US??? THEY NEED TO GO AND WE MUST MAKE THAT HAPPEN WITH OUR BALLOTS!!!!!
If Planned Parenthood is profitable, why do they receive Federal Funding?
Why does "freedom to choose" not include freedom to pay?
It is NOT MY "choice" for anyone to have an abortion so why do I have to pay for it with MY tax dollars?
If abortion was less affordable to individuals, I believe more babies (and mothers) will be saved.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:23 am
If abortion was less affordable to individuals, I believe more babies (and mothers) will be saved.
You would be wrong.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:24 am
Dan the Methodist says:
Hey Ocean, do you believe that we should all have the right to claim bankruptcy as many times at any time we want?
*************
Last time I checked, freedom isn't even close to bankruptcy, except to "christian" religionists who obviously despise freedom, especially in sexual and reproductive choices. Personally, I think it's morally bankrupt to decide for everyone else that enjoyable sex "must" lead to unwanted pregnancy, birth and motherhood, but that's just me.
Thanks to PP and the services it provides, women are able to obtain contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy, which is preferable to abortion, and other health services. Including the possibility of abortion, if the contraception fails. Those who think contraception and abortion are wrong aren't forced to use either option.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:26 am
Melinda –
If your life is so swell and you don't want to change anyone's opinions, why are you posting on this site? It's obvious you have some sort of axe to grind, what do you care what other people belief in?
As a feminist who supports abortion, what do you think about the fate of unborn females in China? That's great isn't it, the right to abort is really encouraged there, specifically for females. Also that is the kind of society you desire, a nice atheist one. Of course that is miles away from your lovely life here —- not affecting you at all I'm sure.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:27 am
What college did you go to?
I can see that you have set your course and don't want to change.
Is it just a golden rule enviornment in your home?
I don't drink coffee either, it doesn't work as well when you need that extra kick.
I have to admit, I am kind of cheap also.
Do you see human kind as a "virus" on the planet?
Do you look for guidence from TV, Government, Newspaper, books or radio?
I am bouncing around a lot…Sorry
I have an Athiest brother-in-law who gives me the dinasaur question everytime I see him.
I cannot prove my faith to you in a way that would effect you, but there is a feeling that I have been blessed to experience when I pray. The only way I can explain it is… I am probably boring you, if not reply to above questions, Please.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:32 am
Did anyone else notice that the Aurora Committee of the Whole cancelled the Tuesday, January, 8 meeting on Friday?????
Coincidence?? or Strategic???
The next scheduled Meeting or the Comittee of the Whole of Aurora, IL is January 15th
January 8th, 2008 at 12:40 am
My grandchildren are at an age where they are just now understanding what abortion means, and what it does to an unborn baby.
They were both appalled and frightened at the thought of a mother allowing the child growing inside of her to be taken out, and that life terminated.
My daughter didnt go into details of what actually happens during an abortion, but felt obligated to partially explain why they no longer shop at Dominicks and to explain what is happening in the building next door.
They asked over and over again, why would a mommy do that? Why does a Dr. let her do that? It was a very sad, very difficult time for all of us.
As long as I live I will never forget the look in their eyes. It brought back painful memories of when I had to explain to my own children what abortion meant.
My question is to all those parents who advocate abortion.
How do you look your own flesh and blood in the eyes and explain to them that it is just fine to end the life of an unborn baby because every woman has the right to do so?
When I was a child, and if my parents had approached me with such information, I would have been terrified to know that they felt it was o.k. to kill an unborn baby.
These are truly terrible times for Aurora and the entire country.
May God have mercy on all of us.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:41 am
What college did you go to? University of South Florida
I can see that you have set your course and don't want to change. Nope. Very happy with my family and my little free thinkers.
Is it just a golden rule enviornment in your home?
Yep. And no painting on the carpet.
I don't drink coffee either, it doesn't work as well when you need that extra kick. I don't need an extra kick. I just get plenty of sleep and exercise.
I have to admit, I am kind of cheap also.
I'm not.
Do you see human kind as a "virus" on the planet?
Nope.
Do you look for guidence from TV, Government, Newspaper, books or radio?
Nope. If I need an opinion, I ask trusted family and friends.
I am bouncing around a lot…Sorry
It's okay.
I have an Athiest brother-in-law who gives me the dinasaur question everytime I see him.
I cannot prove my faith to you in a way that would effect you, but there is a feeling that I have been blessed to experience when I pray. The only way I can explain it is… I am probably boring you, if not reply to above questions, Please.
Honey, I got that same warm feeling when I prayed and went to church. It was like a warm embrace. You make yourself feel that way not some outside source. People of other faiths get that same feeling from their religion. They are all doing it themselves.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:41 am
My question is to all those parents who advocate abortion.
How do you look your own flesh and blood in the eyes and explain to them that it is just fine to end the life of an unborn baby because every woman has the right to do so?
I tell them that when a woman has an embryo growing in her body, she can have it removedeffectively killing it. And, if she wants to later, allow another embryo to grow into a born baby. They are fine with that.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:44 am
Seriously Ocean, you need a reality check, however it seems like it won't be coming from me.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:44 am
I tell them that when a woman has an embryo growing in her body, she can have it removedeffectively killing it. And, if she wants to later, allow another embryo to grow into a born baby. They are fine with that.
____________________________________________________
So you are telling them that if you had had a bad day you would have terminated them — after all those kids of yours aren't anything special. They are eminently replaceable as you said. Pretty darn cold.
I wonder what they will think about you if your life ever become inconvenient for them — after all they could just replace you with another old woman….
January 8th, 2008 at 12:48 am
LB says: Melinda –
If your life is so swell and you don't want to change anyone's opinions, why are you posting on this site? It's obvious you have some sort of axe to grind, what do you care what other people belief in?
As a feminist who supports abortion, what do you think about the fate of unborn females in China? That's great isn't it, the right to abort is really encouraged there, specifically for females. Also that is the kind of society you desire, a nice atheist one. Of course that is miles away from your lovely life here —- not affecting you at all I'm sure.
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Well, LB, it's like this. Woman are not allowed to choose abortion in China, it is forced on them. I am against forced gestation and forced abortion. I am all for any woman choosing to abort or gestate no matter her financial ability, if she has ten other kids or her age. It's all up to her.
I am posting on this site because I was happy for Planned Parenthood's victory and want to see what the fundies were whinning about. No real axe to grind. Just killing time until Perez posts more about Brit Brit.
The country of China is officially atheist but the people are not.
My life here is lovey, thanks.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:49 am
In response to the Tax Dollars issue.
In my opinion, Planned Parenthood is an Abortion Clinic 1st and foremost. The do however provide other sevices, which are objectionable to me, because there is no parental consent involved in contraception. If you need a condom, go to any store and buy it over the counter.
Back to the issue, I believe those tax dollars are "supposed" to be for the education and contraception pieces.
I know, it gets filtered throughout and gives their lobbying more gunpowder.
It is a nasty conveluted business structure to scam taxes and get tax dollars. Until someone says it is illegal, it must be legal???
January 8th, 2008 at 12:50 am
Danster,
Crisis Pregnancy Centers get tax dollars too. They have been proven to lie to girls about abortion. Your tax dollars are going towards supporting lieing to scared young girls who need the facts and the truth. Not a bunch of BS cooked up by some right to lifer.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:53 am
Melinda–
I'm not a 'fundie' as you say. I actually a feminist single mother who values life. I've made my way in this world and am proudly bring up a young lady who also values life. She is irreplacable, I guess, unlike your kids.
On the Aurora Clinic, I think its a bit early to gloat.
Nice that you are gloating about Brittany too, reveling in other's misfortunes — Lovely.
– Good night all — even you, Melinda.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:57 am
Melinda, I don't think you aren't a bad person at all.
Do you think that abortion has been overused???
Do you think it has been left far too ambiguous?
What do you think of parental consent?
How young should our children be exposed to sex education?
I am not asking to piss you off. These are real questions. Questions I ask myself. I want to have a dialouge with you and others like you.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:58 am
Yo, LB,
My kids were planned for an wanted. They are irreplacea ble, too. The Aurora Clinic is here to stay. I am sure you guys are very sincere, but you are really wasting your time and energy. But, if it makes you happy, keep on.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:58 am
I will keep going with you Melinda!!!
I do however have to stand 15 feet away from my house to have a nasty cigarette.
BRB
January 8th, 2008 at 1:02 am
Dan the Methodist says: Melinda, I don't think you aren't a bad person at all.
Right back at ya, Babe.
Do you think that abortion has been overused???
Nope. I think any woman has the right to terminate any unwanted pregnancy for any reason.
Do you think it has been left far too ambiguous?
No, it's pretty black and white. Either you support women's rights to control their own bodies and the contents therein or you feel others have the right to dictact what happens to her body.
What do you think of parental consent?
I don't support it. There should be no barrier to any woman not matter what her age, to getting an abortion.
How young should our children be exposed to sex education?
As soon as possilbe in age approprate intervals.
I am not asking to piss you off. These are real questions. Questions I ask myself. I want to have a dialouge with you and others like you.
You got it.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:03 am
Dan,
Don't smoke. Not only does it kill you it also makes you smell bad.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:04 am
Melinda,
Please tell us more about yourself. What do you think of Parental Notification laws? It would make my blood boil if PP ever maimed my daughter that way and I was not ever even notified it was going on. Would it bother you if PP maimed one your beautiful soccer playing minor children? Or is your idea of parenting to let thems make their own decisions? One day even your children will likely see you in light of the selfishness that drives the daily choices. May your children find guidance and example of a caring mother in their relationship with their grandmother.
Question: Could it be that your mother was a pro-life, caring Christian and you are rebelling against her?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:11 am
Yeah, I know.
Pro-lifers are not perfect people either.
If your daughter needed sergery, wouldn't you expect to be notified or at least get a call?
Maybe find out about it in her medical records??
Hope that the facility is inspected to the same standard as other out patient sergery offices are?
We are talking about under 18 now.
What if Godforbid she was abused by a relative and you weren't told about it. The abortion clinic knew it and didn't do anything to alert you or athorities.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:13 am
Concerned says,
I too want everyone in office to be removed for not fighting for the citizens of Aurora's rights. Does anyone else feel, like me, that everyone on the city council from the Mayor on down absolutely knew what was going on and was probably paid handsomely for their
silence, otherwise why would they risk their positions in office for something they had to have known was going to stir up such bad publicity, anger, and make themselves and the city of Aurora look like such an unfavorable, deceitful place to live. And for that poor soul Melinda Dillon who herself keeps referring to abortions as the killing of babies, that's an such an admission of guilt. If you let them continue to grow in the womb they become babies. How could anything be simpler to understand than that. Whether you believe in God or not, that is the killing of a person. Don't we have people serving time in jail for the same thing?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:15 am
Melinda,
What type of person is your mother? Did she raise you to be pro-life. I think you are the way you are because you are rebelling against your mother and the way you perceived the things she did to you. Have you seen a psychologist about it?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:16 am
Dan,
The spirit is moving us both to the same ideas. I was posting about parental notification the same time you were. I think her problems stem from anger and rebellion against her mother. I am guessing her mother was a pro-life Christian. I have seen it before.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:19 am
Dan the Methodist says: Yeah, I know.
Pro-lifers are not perfect people either.
If your daughter needed sergery, wouldn't you expect to be notified or at least get a call?
No. Abortion is different than a surgery she needed to save her life. There is a lot more personal baggage for her in an abortion than if she needed her appendix out. I want her to be able to get an abortion if she wanted one without having to jump through hoops.
Maybe find out about it in her medical records??
I don't need to find out. If she did have one and didn't tell me about it, I would be hurt because she didn't allow me to drive her there and hold her hand and then take care of her afterward. But, I would be glad she was able to get it done.
Hope that the facility is inspected to the same standard as other out patient sergery offices are? Well, here in Illinois, they are.
We are talking about under 18 now. Yes.
What if Godforbid she was abused by a relative and you weren't told about it. The abortion clinic knew it and didn't do anything to alert you or athorities.
That would be the price we would pay in order to assure she didn't die.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:19 am
Paul2 says: Melinda,
What type of person is your mother? Did she raise you to be pro-life. I think you are the way you are because you are rebelling against your mother and the way you perceived the things she did to you. Have you seen a psychologist about it?
——————————–
Paul, my parents are agnostics and raised us sans religion. She is a lovely woman who is pro choice.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:21 am
Melinda,
I suggest you ignore comments about your mother and other assertions. You have been open and honest with us and I appreceate that. You do have an ax to grind with religion and your perception of rightiousness and I would like to avoid that type of exchange, because the exchange becomes sniping.
We get no closer to positive change, by doing that we simply repel further apart.
Aren't there things we can agree on?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:24 am
Melinda,
Did you mother discuss abortion with you as a child? Did she ever have any abortions? Are you an only child?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:25 am
Dan the Methodist,
I beg to differ. Knowing where a person comes from defintely helps us understand who they are now. And if a person is pro-abort and proud of it, then they would have no problem speaking openly about their abortive experiences.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:29 am
Paul2 says: Melinda,
What type of person is your mother? Did she raise you to be pro-life. I think you are the way you are because you are rebelling against your mother and the way you perceived the things she did to you. Have you seen a psychologist about it?
Danster, I am sure you are a lovely man and we would probably get along famously. I still have many friends from my Xian days and several of my most beloved relatives are PL. However, on abortion, there is either for or against. I am wholly for. I am for it as a form of birth control for those famous "lazy women" we all hear about. I am for abortion in the case of forgotten BC or misused BC. I am for abortion if the woman just doesn't want to be pregnant. I am for abortion in the case of rape. I am for abortion in the case of fetal deformity.
I don't have any degrees of acceptance like in the case of rape or incest. I think PLers who would allow abortion in the case of rape or incest are horrible. One one hand, they say that a fetus is a baby and deserving of full protection under the law but then turn around and say women should be allowed to kill those babies if they were conceived from rape or incest. That's like saying it's a-okay to slit your three-year-old's throat if you have a good enough reason.
It's either a human being from coneption or it's not.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:31 am
Paul2 says: Melinda,
Did you mother discuss abortion with you as a child? Did she ever have any abortions? Are you an only child?
Paul, no she did not. No, she had three miscarrages that I found out about much later in life. I have four sisters.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:33 am
Oh, and I have never had an abortion and I lost my virginity at 29. Anything else, Pauly?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:33 am
I think she has been very honest.
I was only interested with keeping the conversation substinative and open, opposed to snipy and defensive.
Some who come on here deserve it, I just thought she didn't. No hard feelings
January 8th, 2008 at 1:35 am
Melinda,
Dan asked you "What if Godforbid she was abused by a relative and you weren't told about it. The abortion clinic knew it and didn't do anything to alert you or athorities."
And you responded "That would be the price we would pay in order to assure she didn't die."
There are no guarantees she wouldn't die and her chances of survival would likely be better if you had a chance to research in advance and find a doctor without prior malpractice suits against them. I think you are in denial.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:36 am
I am intrigued!!
Impressed!!!
And confused???
January 8th, 2008 at 1:37 am
Do you believe in LOVE?
What advice would you give your young daughter or young teens as a whole when it comes to sex?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:39 am
None taken Dan the Methodist,
You ask very poignant questions and I enjoy your posts. Don't be afraid to say anything to me that is on your mind. I love the way you think and I appreciate your telling me if you think I am out-f-line
January 8th, 2008 at 1:39 am
Melinda,
I'm glad you're having a wonderful, cozy life; I'm glad you can live with the thought that 50,000,000 babies (that's 50 MILLION! - I don't know how anyone can wrap their mind around that number and not shudder) have been prevented from living in the last 35 years because of legalized abortion on demand. I'm glad that you can look your children in the eyes and not feel guilty about the abortion lies you believe. If it helps you sleep at night, more power to you. I hope that someday, if one of your "little free thinkers" comes to you and tells you that she (if you have a daughter), or his girlfriend (if you have a son) had an abortion that you still feel so very comfortable with the beliefs you have now.
As much as I love my daughter (and still would), I hope she never has an abortion, because every time I looked into her eyes I know I would see the face of her unborn child looking back at me and I would mourn - both for the child, and for my daughter. My mother had a miscarriage when I was four years old (almost 50 years ago), and our family still mourns the loss of that little brother, or sister - even though there were other brothers born who should have "replaced" him or her.
Do you not see the irony in a legal system that says it's ok to kill your unborn baby if you don't want it, but if I kill a wanted baby still in the mother's womb in an accident, or a shooting, etc. it's murder? Do you not see the irony in a Breast Cancer awareness fund (Susan Komen) that donates $500,000 a year to Planned Parenthood (the single largest provider of abortions), when scientific studies have shown that there is a direct link between abortion and an increased risk of getting breast cancer? Do you not see that since artificial contraception and abortion have been made legal that respect for existing life has spiraled downwards - to the point, that as a woman entering the "golden years" I worry that I may be killed if I get too old or sick to be "useful" or if someone considers me a "burden"? Do you not understand that life in ALL its stages is a precious, glorious miracle that deserves to be protected at all costs?
I'm guessing that none of that matters to you, or you couldn't express the views you have expressed here tonight. But, as posted earlier - you WILL be prayed for, and I hope someday you will look back at this time in your life with regret that you ever espoused these beliefs, and relief that you espouse them no more.
God Bless You and Keep You, May His Face Shine Upon You, and may He always hold you in the palm of His Hand.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:39 am
You guys can ask me anything and I will tell the truth. I was an advertising executive for fifteen years before I had my first child. When we moved to Illinois, we decided that I would be a stay at home mother. I have a daughter and a son who are the loves of my life. I married the second man I had sex with and we are going on ten years married. I like going to the theater, films, and museums with my family. I like Dr. Who and Torchwood and pretty much anything on BBC America. I never lose at Trivial Pursuit and I had my forty third birthday on December 29th. Now, I don't know my blood type but as soon as I get that info, I will post it for you, Pauly.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:39 am
My advice is simple and old fashioned
1) abstinence
2) Your body is a temple of the Lord and sex is something to be saved for your husband.
3) Guys just want to get into your pants.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:45 am
Melinda,
I'm glad you're having a wonderful, cozy life; I'm glad you can live with the thought that 50,000,000 babies (that's 50 MILLION! - I don't know how anyone can wrap their mind around that number and not shudder) have been prevented from living in the last 35 years because of legalized abortion on demand.
Thanks. I am very happy that 40 million women availed themselves of safe and legal abortions.
I'm glad that you can look your children in the eyes and not feel guilty about the abortion lies you believe.
Okay, parse that one for me and get back to me.
If it helps you sleep at night, more power to you. I hope that someday, if one of your "little free thinkers" comes to you and tells you that she (if you have a daughter), or his girlfriend (if you have a son) had an abortion that you still feel so very comfortable with the beliefs you have now.
I will be sorry they didn't allow me to make the appointment for them, pay for it and then feed them soup and crackers afterwards.
As much as I love my daughter (and still would), I hope she never has an abortion, because every time I looked into her eyes I know I would see the face of her unborn child looking back at me and I would mourn - both for the child, and for my daughter.
I would be happy I still had my daughter, alive and able to see her beautiful face instead of visiting her grave.
My mother had a miscarriage when I was four years old (almost 50 years ago), and our family still mourns the loss of that little brother, or sister - even though there were other brothers born who should have "replaced" him or her.
As you should, that was a wanted pregnancy.
Do you not see the irony in a legal system that says it's ok to kill your unborn baby if you don't want it, but if I kill a wanted baby still in the mother's womb in an accident, or a shooting, etc. it's murder?
No irony. Wanted pregnancies are protected by law.
Do you not see the irony in a Breast Cancer awareness fund (Susan Komen) that donates $500,000 a year to Planned Parenthood (the single largest provider of abortions), when scientific studies have shown that there is a direct link between abortion and an increased risk of getting breast cancer?
Honey, that was disprovedn several years ago.
Do you not see that since artificial contraception and abortion have been made legal that respect for existing life has spiraled downwards - to the point, that as a woman entering the "golden years" I worry that I may be killed if I get too old or sick to be "useful" or if someone considers me a "burden"?
Babe, you've seen Soylent Green and Logan's Run too many times.
Do you not understand that life in ALL its stages is a precious, glorious miracle that deserves to be protected at all costs?
No, it's not and neither to you.
I'm guessing that none of that matters to you, or you couldn't express the views you have expressed here tonight. But, as posted earlier - you WILL be prayed for, and I hope someday you will look back at this time in your life with regret that you ever espoused these beliefs, and relief that you espouse them no more.
Nope. I am very happy with my views. I have no problems with them.
God Bless You and Keep You, May His Face Shine Upon You, and may He always hold you in the palm of His Hand.
And may the Flying Spaghgetti Monster touch you with his noodely appendage.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:45 am
Thanks, Paul DITO
Melinda,
You obviously chose not to partake in the sexual revelution, Why?
You seem driven, confident, and grounded in YOUR morals. To me that is attractive. You must have had to abstain somewhat.
I don't think abortion will ever end. However, the complete embrace of it has denigrated the way women are appreceated, the respect and responsibility our children show parents and each other, in my opinion.
How do we turn this around?
So our kids respect each other and show some restrain or responsibility for reproduction. Abortion should not be birth control, in my opinion.
What is your opinoin?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:50 am
What a typer too!
January 8th, 2008 at 1:50 am
Paul2 says: My advice is simple and old fashioned
1) abstinence
2) Your body is a temple of the Lord and sex is something to be saved for your husband.
3) Guys just want to get into your pants.
————————————
Teaching abstience doesn't work. See: http://www.siecus.org/media/press/press0141.html
Your body belongs to you and no one else. Sex is wonderful and as long as you are emotionally ready, enjoy it, but enjoy it safely.
Your third point is an insult to men.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:51 am
Melinda,
Abstnence worked for you. Is that what you teach your
children?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:53 am
Melinda, I don't get it?????
You lost your virginity at 29 and you say abstinence doesn't work. What gives? Are you for real?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:55 am
I can tell you from a man's point of view.
IT'S TRUE!!!!
We think about it WAY TOO MUCH!!!
God forgive me!
January 8th, 2008 at 1:55 am
Dan the Methodist says: Thanks, Paul DITO
Melinda,
You obviously chose not to partake in the sexual revelution, Why?
You seem driven, confident, and grounded in YOUR morals. To me that is attractive. You must have had to abstain somewhat.
I don't think abortion will ever end.
It will not.
However, the complete embrace of it has denigrated the way women are appreceated, the respect and responsibility our children show parents and each other, in my opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion.
How do we turn this around?
Why? It's only your opinion. It is not supported by fact.
So our kids respect each other and show some restrain or responsibility for reproduction. How about comprehensive education starting at as early age as possible. Look at Sweden, they have low teen pregnancy rates, low abortion rates and a very healthy standar of living. They start teaching their children about sex at a very young age in school.
Abortion should not be birth control, in my opinion.
What is your opinoin?
Abortion should be available to any woman for any reason she chooses.
Gerri Santaro is the only dead woman who we have a picture of. I love my daughter with all my heart and the thought of finding her like Gerri Santaro was found makes my blood run cold. I will do everything to make sure she is educated on the subject and if she wanted an abortion, I will do everything to make sure she gets one. I would much rather have a living breathing daughter than a dead one.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:56 am
Paul2 says: Melinda,
Abstnence worked for you. Is that what you teach your
children?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:53 am Paul2 says: Melinda, I don't get it?????
You lost your virginity at 29 and you say abstinence doesn't work. What gives? Are you for real?
—————————————–
I didn't actively not have sex. I would have LOVED to have lots and lots of sex but I was a fat nerd so I didn't get many offers. I lost the weight, had a couple of one night stands with a very lovely Palestinian man and then I met my husband and that was it for me.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:59 am
I will teach my children that sex can be wonderful if you are emotionally ready for it and when they do become sexually active, I will make sure they have protection.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:00 am
It is very cold in Sweden. Ever hear of shrinkage???
Ha Ha joke.
Sweden….. I will steer clear of the Nobel Peace Prize… Socialism…. I am trying to think of something we agree on.
How do you feel about adolf hitler?
January 8th, 2008 at 2:02 am
It's been real, guys, but I gotta get some sleep. I am sure you are all very nice and sincere people who are doing what you think is the right thing. I would say "good luck" but I wouldn't mean it. Instead, I will say, Nighty Night!!!
January 8th, 2008 at 2:03 am
Look people, this decision by the ZBA was nothing short of a formality. They basically passed the buck. No final answer was ever expected to be found here, but it was necessary to go through this channel because of the order of appeals. Even if the ZBA had voted in favor of life their ruling would have been appealed by the haters of life. So, next stop, County Circuit Court. No, the fight is not over, and no, The two W's in this city will not walk away unscathed. An important fact to keep in mind is that this board did not address one of the infringements of the zoning code. They only said they were not able to hear an appeal. Not a denial that infringements exist. That my friends equals an open door. Patience people, patience.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:05 am
Thanks for your unapologetic honesty.
I accept your opinion, I just cannot make sense of it.
Have a Happy New Year.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:05 am
Melinda Dillon, your insecurity is all too apparent. May God Bless you and keep you.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:07 am
Paul2,
REALLY. I appreceated this post!!!
I enjoy your thoughtful pieces as well.
None taken Dan the Methodist,
You ask very poignant questions and I enjoy your posts. Don't be afraid to say anything to me that is on your mind. I love the way you think and I appreciate your telling me if you think I am out-f-line
January 8th, 2008 at 2:10 am
REST, for we have more battles to wage!
Night
January 8th, 2008 at 2:11 am
The impact of Aurora's sleeping giant-Fox Valley Villages-will be felt at City Hall like never before. These Aurorans "in name only" are going to be a strong voting block that will not take being pushed around by City Hall bullies. They have no loyalty to old political hacks, they are smart and they have ignored local politics until now!! Planned Parenthood being shoved down their throats is a little wake up call.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:18 am
Melinda,
You say you love your daughter so much but don't care that some stranger could stick a forceps inside her and maim her or make her sterile or even worse kill her. There is something very disingenuine about being willing to abandon a dependent that you profess so much love/care for. In reality it is always better and safer for a minor to have a caring parent overseeing the quality of care she receives throughout such a traumatic and possibly life threatening procedure. Your willingness to abandon your daughter is likely an extension of the same mindset that makes you say abortion should be allowed wherever and whenever, even to the point of killing babies that could survive on their own outside the womb. You should meditate on your willlingness to abandon children in need and ask yourself how a caring mother can hide her head in the sand while babies get slaughtered? Even if it is somebody elses child.
January 8th, 2008 at 3:02 am
Melinda,
In Post 40 you said to Linda:
***************************
5. "SOMEONE IN THE CHURCH MUST HAVE CAUSED YOU A GREAT DEAL OF HURT FOR YOU TO FEEL THIS WAY"
You couldn't have possibly left Christianity just because you studied the Bible and you think you found inconsistencies and errors in it.
**************************
Tell me about the inconsistencies. Maybe I can clear them up for you.
January 8th, 2008 at 3:38 am
Melinda,
I have a hypothetical for you that could help me greatly in understanding your position.
Lets say two adults have consentusl sex. The mother gets pregnant. The father wants the child abut the mother was not planning pregnancy at this time.
Does the father have any rights. Does the fact that he wants the baby make the baby any more valuable in your eyes?
January 8th, 2008 at 3:45 am
O my Jesus, you who once said, seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened to you. Behold, I knock, I seek and I ask, for the grace of your Father's Holy Spirit to come down upon His children here on earth. And to give us the strength to perservere through lifes trials.
And that He may send his holy angels down to visit us always. To comfort us and to protect us. To drive satan and his deceitful murderous legions of disorder far from us, and to guide us into your Sacred Heart.
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses. As we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory Now and forever.
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blesed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners. Now and at the hour of our death. Amen
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the
Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen
O Sacred Heart of Jesus. I place all my trust in Thee.
January 8th, 2008 at 4:25 am
Melinda Dillon says:
Nothing fails like prayer…and Families Against Planned Parenthood.
AND BIRTH CONTROL.
January 8th, 2008 at 6:50 am
NewAurora says:
Seriously Ocean, you need a reality check, however it seems like it won't be coming from me.
****************
Oooooh, and what kind of "reality check" would that be, exactly? Sounds like you're just ticked that I can make my OWN rules for my life, within the bounds of civil laws of my city, state and country, that is. Well, too bad. Thanks to the first words of the First Amendment, I am free to reject the spiritual toxic waste dump of gods, religions and churches. I simply prefer freedom over slavery, and that freedom includes deciding for MYSELF when to have sex, under what circumstances to have it, and how many children I want. Works well enough for me, and that's all that counts.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:11 am
Paul2 says:
My advice is simple and old fashioned
1) abstinence
2) Your body is a temple of the Lord and sex is something to be saved for your husband.
3) Guys just want to get into your pants.
***********
1. Abstinence-NO THANKS. I enjoy sex anytime I want, with reliable BC in place. No one gets to decide for me when sex is acceptable or not.
2. What a revolting thought, and a perfect way to keep women SLAVES. Not a chance. Again, it is MY decision when and under what circumstances to have sex, not yours.
3. Contrary to what men might BELIEVE, we aren't stupid. We're capable of deciding for ourselves what guys we want to have sex with.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:18 am
Mike says:
The impact of Aurora's sleeping giant-Fox Valley Villages-will be felt at City Hall like never before. These Aurorans "in name only" are going to be a strong voting block that will not take being pushed around by City Hall bullies. They have no loyalty to old political hacks, they are smart and they have ignored local politics until now!! Planned Parenthood being shoved down their throats is a little wake up call.
********
And WHO is forcing you to patronize PP if you don't wish to use their services? The answer is simple, NO ONE. So the assertion that PP is "being shoved down your throats" is just more nonsense, with no hard evidence to back it up.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:29 am
I don't care about abortion. Personally I just want to know the truth; and it appears the City does not want people to know the truth. That is the problem. I believe people have a right to know what is going in around them and to be able to voice their concerns. It is a shame that our government thinks so low of the residents that pay a large amount of taxes.
January 8th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Soooo…the pro-aborts won this round(with the help of city officials) and they come here to gloat?
Well, the war goes on…Let's keep the faith folks!
January 8th, 2008 at 9:53 am
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. I Cor. 1:18 Prayer: Jesus, we come to You with gratitude for the cross. Thank You, for loving us enough to endure its shame and pain. May we honor Your sacrifice. May we live to honor You.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Ramir San Diego,
I don't think the pro-aborts "won" this round. Both sides expected this to go to state court, and now we've finally moved to that phase. Considering that the ZBA is an appointed board (at least that's my understanding), I'm surprised it took this long.
Now the real case begins in a real court…
Peace,
Jeff
January 8th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Ocean says:
************************************
"And WHO is forcing you to patronize PP if you don't wish to use their services? The answer is simple, NO ONE. So the assertion that PP is "being shoved down your throats" is just more nonsense, with no hard evidence to back it up.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:29 am "
************************************
Here is you hard eveidence:
PP lied and deceived their way into our town. PP petitions for "our" tax doolars and use "our" tax money to promote "their" culture death. They stomp on our rights as parents when they enable aborionists to maim our children and leave us no legal recourse to stop them. But we will not abandon our children. And we refuse to just turn the other way while enabling rapists escape justice and remiain free. All of the above are a lot more important to us then seeing to it that your rights to pursue sexual pleasure are protected. The fact that you force all of the above down our throats doesn't matter you. You are a completely self-centered person. With you everything and everybody is just a bug to be squashed. Your love for sex whenever you want is stronger then your love for other people whose lives you disregard and you crush along the way. Well I got news for you. Your ability to seek pleasure through unfettered sex really doesn't matter to us as much as keeping our children safe or keeping rapists off the streets. Does that really surprise you? You must really be wearing blinders.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Keep up the good fight, Aurora!! God will prevail! Praying for all of you!!
January 8th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Thanks Jeff, for the clarification…with all the gloating I'm reading, it sounded like the pro-aborts already "won" something…
AT least now, we can deal with (hopefully) level-headed officials.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Thank you to all the PP supporters who engage in discussion. I can not agree with your points but it is only through dialog that we can try and understand each other. Please try not to mock.
Thank you to all the pro-lifers who are willing to take the time to dialog with the PP supporters. For the most part you have all been very patient. Remember it is a virtue.
For those of us who are believer the prayer below was given to us for the conversion of the world. I pray it often and I invite anyone who doesn't already to join me.
God Bless you all
Fatima Prayer
" Oh my God I believe, I trust, I love and I adore You. I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not trust, do not love and do not adore You."
" Oh my God I believe, I trust, I love and I adore You. I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not trust, do not love and do not adore You."
" Oh my God I believe, I trust, I love and I adore You. I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not trust, do not love and do not adore You."
January 8th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Paul2 says:
You are a completely self-centered person. With you everything and everybody is just a bug to be squashed. Your love for sex whenever you want is stronger then your love for other people whose lives you disregard and you crush along the way. Well I got news for you. Your ability to seek pleasure through unfettered sex really doesn't matter to us as much as keeping our children safe or keeping rapists off the streets. Does that really surprise you? You must really be wearing blinders.
*************
In other words, you're just ticked at PP because it provides women with a way to enjoy sex WITHOUT the unwanted burdens of pregnancy and motherhood. Too bad. Not every woman wants children, and no woman should have to be forced to endure a pregnancy she doesn't want simply because "christian" religionists believe women should be punished for enjoying sex. You know, the whole "face consequences for their immoral actions" kind of thing.
As far as I'M concerned, it is you and they who are truly the selfish ones, because you are demanding that YOUR beliefs be forced onto everyone else. Even the men and women who prefer choice in matters of sex and reproduction. As I said previously, no one is forcing you or anyone else to use PP's service, and you have no right to force anyone NOT to use them. That's probably what sticks in your throat most, your impotence to control the sexual and reproductive choices of others, particularly women. Too bad. The ZBA has spoken, and it was not in your favor, which is a very good thing for those who do value freedom and choice.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
I'd like to apologize for some (not all) of the comments by the PC community that were posted last night. While I share some of their frustration, there is no excuse for some of the things that were said here. It's not fair to engage in some of the same behavior that we abhor in the other side. For that, as a part of the pro-choice community, I apologize.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Abortion- Today's Holocaust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woPX4oZM9hA
January 8th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Perhaps we're taking the wrong approach with words- let's try pictures?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdxWFr_UjqQ
January 8th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Yet another hopeful chance to change some hardened hearts………..with prayers,Jane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12ObKBqj6O4&feature=related
January 8th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Student,
Can you tell me which comments in particular you abhor offensive or are they too numerous to post?
January 8th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
WOW! This is a long blog. Interesting. It looks like a pro-abortion person can believe one thing and do a different thing, preach one thing and practice a totally different one. They want for others what they would not want for themselves or their children. If that is not hypocrisy I don't know what is.
I agree, with or without God we are responsible for our actions, believers or not we are endowed with free will and can choose our beliefs and actions. But there is surely a consecuence for our choices. Some of them not immediate and too subtle to be grasped, but consecuences anyway. All in due time.
It looks like God wants this pro-life battle to be longer. Is not coming easy, but this will make victory the most resounding and glorious when it happens, in God's way, "Thy Will be Done". And it surely is God's will because HUMAN LIFE IS SACRED. It is evident Hitler and Stalin did not shared this belief, neither the Hutus did during the Rwanda genocide and certainly don't the people who perform abortions, support abortions and have their own babies killed.
I cannot infuse people with Faith, Hope and Grace. No one can in and by itself. Only God does that whenever we let Him. In due time.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Melinda Dillon,
You've been on my mind all day. You are obviously a very intelligent woman and feel very strongly about your PC views, and while I will never understand those views or accept them, I admire that you were willing to take the heat for what you believe. We PL's could learn a lesson from you on that. We all took our jabs at each other here last night, and we all took some heat for our views. I was reading through these posts trying to see where our common ground is, and I guess it is that we are passionate about our beliefs, whatever they are. We need to be less personal in our arguments though (and I AM most definitely talking about myself as well - probably more so than others; I can be a real snot when I can't get my point across the way I wish I could… it's definitely a character flaw). When we are able to keep our passions under control, and dialogue without being personal I can see that we CAN work towards some other common ground. My problem is that I want us to live in a perfect world, but we don't, and we won't in this life. I will keep working towards getting abortion banned in my piece of the world, and I know you will keep working to keep it in place, and nothing I say will probably make any difference to you adjusting your goal, and I know no persuasive argument in favor of abortion will ever make me believe that it is ever the "right thing to do."
Melinda, I told you that I was adding you to my prayer list, and I did. I told you that I would include you in my intentions when I pray the Rosary each morning, and I have done that as well. You might sneer a bit, and think of a wise crack to make (or maybe just think it), and that's ok. And, maybe the only thing that will touch either one of us is the noodly appendage of the Spaghetti Monster (I actually thought that was kinda funny). But, if following through with what we believe helps us to get through the days, then that's what we must do, right?
Take care, Melinda. Love your children with all your might (I can tell you do). I wish only good things for you and your family.
Cathy
January 8th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I reserve te right to be wrong but I don't "think" Melinda is a real person. Either that or she is really lost and insecure. Just a hunch but I think her whole personna was made up by a PP supporter. There are way too many guys out there who like big women for her to have been a virgin until she was 29 while claiming she would have loved to have lots of sex but couldn't cause she was fat….I find that really hard to believe, especially while claiming she does ot value abstinence
January 8th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
You never can be sure who is on the other end of a blog…….
January 8th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
You may be right - I've been reading through the blog and while her comments may be real, the name kept ringing a bell, so I Googled her - Melinda Dillon is the name of the actress who played Darrin McGavin's wife in "A Christmas Story" ("you'll shoot your eye out"). Might just be a coincidence, but as you said - you never know who is on the other side of an Internet post.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I am thinking Paul 2 is right about posts on this site.
I cannot believe that a woman in her 40's has been so sheltered that she doesn't have a conservative cell in her body. Yet she is a virgin?? Possible, yet hard to believe.
to the comment below (Paul2 had a great response to it)
"And WHO is forcing you to patronize PP if you don't wish to use their services? The answer is simple, NO ONE. So the assertion that PP is "being shoved down your throats" is just more nonsense, with no hard evidence to back it up.
Pretend you don't live in a society which is being socialized?? It is OK to pretend you are pro business and pro freedom, but the truth is usually so very far from the that.
Let us take a look at the new smoking ban in illinois. Why do we have to stop smoking in restaurants?? Cannot the people that work there make up thier own minds about the risks?? Why hasn't there been an ALgore Restaurant built that will not allow smoking, according to non-smokers it would be the most successful ever. Clearly you can see the similarity of the two analagies.
The realization is that there are many sides and many levels of support for different objectives within our Pro Life Group, yet there is no give or dialouge from the Abort crowd. It is ALL ABORT, ALL THE TIME, FOR ANY REASON, WTHOUT PARENTAL CONSCENT and that is IT. I do not hear dialouge about medial records, about parental concent, about the regulation of such a sudo medical office, increased risk of breast cancer or the genicide of a race from the left. I feel it is an injustice that this matter was not legislated, but instead thrusted upon us by Roe v Wade and every blue bleeding Lib will stand to the death for this cash cow that has taken many of it's young voters lives.
P.S. Beware of the PP minions who blog here. If they cannot be honest or they cannot seem to make any sense, IGNORE THEM. We are here to shape opinion and sharpen our own, to that end we are doing GREAT!
January 9th, 2008 at 6:58 am
Paul2,
I think the comments from the PC side that are offensive speak for themselves, as do several that you have made here as well. IMHO, neither side has behaved particularly well (although I do believe there are a couple of people on the PL side who are sincere in wanting to speak with others and are capable of doing so without sniping — ex. Cathy).
January 9th, 2008 at 8:40 am
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. Deuteronomy 30:19 Prayer: We ask You, Father, to guard our choices. Guard our thoughts. Give us wisdom. Let us make choices that will bless the next generation.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Student,
Some PC people come to PL sites insincere and there purpose is not to dialogue. They use phony personnas and their goal is to get caring people to open and then have their fun crushing them. I just like to call their bluff. I don't misrepresent myself and my posts are sincere.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Paul2,
I have no way of knowing whether or not you (or anyone else) misreprents themselves. I saw some bad behavior on the part of the PC community and, as a part of that community, I felt the decent thing to do would be to apologize for what "I" believed to be rudeness. I think that behavior gets nowhere.
Your posts indicate to "me" that you are not sincere in your wish to dialogue. You use flash words which do nothing but anger those that disagree with you (and those flash words can and are used by both sides). They are not useful in a give and take discussion. Your posts indicate to "me" someone who is highly judgmental and looking for a fight. Questioning someone's sanity and whether or not they are a good parent because they do not agree with you is, IMHO, completely out of line. Normally I'd just ignore it and let it go, but you did ask.
January 9th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Student,
I will agree that the comment about seeing a psychoanalyst was out of line. And I have no problem apologizing for that. I was thinking about another woman I know who is PC cause she resents her mother and I was trying to find out why there were so many inconsistencies in Melinda's dialogue. The rest I stand by. Asking the personal questions is how I find inconsistencies and call out the people who are not being genuine.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
PC'ers have a hard road to honestly and openly express the reasons they believe it is o.k to kill their babies (or fetuses if that makes it easier to swallow) and still contend they are a loving, caring person. Every blog I go to they all seem to do the same things. Bash religion (especially Christianity) and try to dehumanize the human life that is growing inside the womb and talk about it as being worthless. They ultimately resort to personal attacks cause they can't logically contend to be a loving, caring person and at the same time dehumanize the most dependent in our society.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Paul2,
I have no problem with asking a personal question, however, I take issue with someone calling another a bad parent because they disagree with their particular stance on one issue. You simply have no way of knowing the parenting abilities of anyone else based on a blog entry.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
You are correct. And I was angry when I ran into
those snipers last night. However I reserve the right to say that someone who kills a baby in the womb is likely a bad parent, at least to the one they abort. Wether they are a bad parent to older children I cannot judge unless they provide further personal information. If they say they are against parental notification then I would call that bad parenting of their adult children, and wether or not that opinion is correct would likely be determined through additional dialogue.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
adult children sounds like an oxymoron. I guess unemancipated minors is a better way to say it
January 9th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
What is IMHO???
Go ahead, I am sure it is a question that deserves a few laughs.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Dan,
Don't worry….my kids had to teach me the lingo too. IMHO = in my humble opinion
January 9th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Dan the Methodist,
IMHO stands for In My Humble Opinion.
By the way, how have you been?
January 9th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Student,
I don't mind criticism. In fact I like it. How can a person ever learn and become a better person unless somebody is willing to show them. Thanks for sharing
YHO with me. I'd appreciate it if you would let me know if I get out of line again.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
For someone with such passionate convictions, you have not lost your humility Paul2.
CONGRADULATIONS!!
It isn't easy.
Student,
I have not really learned much about you. Where do you stand? What is your objective? What are you a student of?
You seem respectful and thoughtful. I don't think that you will praise the works of karl marx or the eugenics program of the nazi's.(hope I spelled correctly) I am not inflexible to the point that i cannot see other points of view, however I am pulled back to my point of view by my faith and values.
If you want to discuss. We all can do that.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Obviously, there are a lot af caring Christians on this
site- Dan the Methodist, you are "walking the walk".
I blogged one other site on PLAL the other day& am not
afraid to bring up the subject again. It is easy to view
PP's sites, Naral's.etc for the sole purpose of "keeping
your friends close but your enemies closer".Many pro-lifers check these sites just to see what they are doing & telling their pro-aborts.One method viewed frequently, is what I see today. Get on a pro-life blog,
and disrupt and corrupt. Change the subject.
Eric (or Matt,John, etc) do not have to let them blog
in. This is a privilege-not a right.
IMHO- Melinda is either following pro-abort protocol,
or she needs additional help that she can get if she calls to speak to someone at PLAL or any pro-life facility. I would be glad to speak w/her on her issues-
I have been active in pro-life for over 20 yrs. Melinda
and so many others are not in the Light, so we pray for
them & others. The Devil uses ordinary people to do his
dirty work. We need to move on….and get back to being
God's vessels for saving babies and mothers. We need to
stay focused . We need to continue to work on closing
PP's, abortion clinics, etc. We need to continue to fight unfair zoning and unfair laws. Let us not lose
sight of what God has put in our hearts.
Deut.30:19 (a Joe favorite): ….."Today, I have given
you the choice between life & death"…. "Oh, that you
would choose LIFE, that you & your descendants might live".
.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Dan,
To answer your questions….I am moderately PC. I suppose my objective is a study in sociology/psychology and how it applies to the law. I'd like to find ways for people to come together and have been attempting to objectively watch extreme elements on both sides of the issue.
I do try to be respectful and thoughtful and if I ever make a remark you deem unfair, please feel free to call me on it….although I try very hard to keep those types of remarks to myself. I think it is the only thing that leads to meaningful debate. Your spelling is fine (grin), but I'm not going to get baited into a debate about Marx and/or eugenics. It would be similar to my starting a conversation with you by saying, "So Dan, I doubt you'd think it's a good idea to sell your daughter as a sex slave." C'mon, we're both smarter than that. If that's the best we can do I prefer to remain a silent observer.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Student,
I assume moderately PC includes when a womens life is in danger. What other exceptions might that include.
BTW….your responding when I asked what posts I made bothered you has really helped me. Thank you for your honesty and for your opinion.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Paul,
Are you asking what exceptions I personally believe are okay or which I feel should be legal? Are there any exceptions to your PL stance?
January 10th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Student,
Maybe you could tell me both. For me which ones I think are acceptable seems very clear and is not likely to change, it would be to save the mother from severe health risk.
Which ones I think should be legal will change over time. I am much less tolerant of abortion at any time during pregnancy without enforceable Parental Notification Laws. With predators like PP out there lying their way into our towns. Fighting for unfettered and unrestricted access to our unemancipated minors so they can mutilate them. Enabling rapists to escape justice.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
Student,
And though I would discourage it, I would allow an exception in the case of rape because there was no consent to intercourse.
January 11th, 2008 at 4:18 am
Student,
Clearly I have no reason to go there, although there are some gruesome lessons. I put that in there as a light joke, since my exchange with melinda was nice, though like talking to the Cecile Richards herself.(She leads PP nationally)
I myself am not looking to slam the door. When Roe v Wade was decided 35 years ago by a court instead of debated in the Congress it was a shock to society and our country. I resent the fact that it was decided at the Supreme Court, but I believe that if Roe V Wade is overturn, as many lawyers left and right contend it should be, the power of the state laws will kick in and can prove to be far more segratory. (Is that a word, or have I been listening to Bush speeches for too long? I believe this imbalance would raise the confrontation between left and right to a new level that would prove to be weakening for our Blessed Country.
Instead, I would propose we start with things that are legally consistent and have clear support. As we saw here in Aurora, Parental Consent is a great place to start. Next, if they are so trusted as medical proffessionals, why don't medical records and Planned Parenthood mix? If you can ban cigarette smoking in and around public places on top of the taxes that are HEAPED ON THE SALE, why can't we TAX ABORTION and set up buffer zones for building PPs close to schools?
What are your thoughts and suggestions? I don't know how realistic my suggestions are, but we have to turn this death train around. I will watch for your thoughts and write back tomorrow. LOVE reading this thread!!!
January 11th, 2008 at 6:41 am
Dan the Methodist,
I agree that parental notification/consent laws are very important. I would take it one step further. Since PP and other abortion clinics do surgical procedures, they should be regulated like any other out patient surgury centers. They are not. Since there are medical complications from abortions, clinics should be required to be connected to a hospital. Legislatures in some states are looking at this but PP is leading the way against it saying it is too expensive, and would force them to close. I don't believe that. PP and other abortion clinics just don't want to be held accountable. There is no reason for them to be untouchable.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:41 am
DAN: Clearly I have no reason to go there, although there are some gruesome lessons. I put that in there as a light joke, since my exchange with melinda was nice, though like talking to the Cecile Richards herself.(She leads PP nationally)
RESPONSE: Ok, but I am not Melinda. Please don’t lump everyone who is PC together. It would be unfair to say all Republicans are either Ron Paul or Fred Thompson supporters…….there’s a lot of room between the two. The same is true with the PC crowd. There are some who are extremely to the left of the issue and there are others on the right side……again, there’s a whole heck of a lot of room in the middle (I’m pretty sure the same holds true for the PL crowd as well).
DAN: I myself am not looking to slam the door. When Roe v Wade was decided 35 years ago by a court instead of debated in the Congress it was