VitaT takes on EmilyX: Round One
Posted by Mary Lu, November 4th, 2007
I am Vita T. Like many of you, I also have read the Planned Parenthood blog "written" by Emily X. We are not allowed to speak the truth on their website so I, Vita T, have decided to counter Emily X falsehoods—every one of them.
Emily X: some notes about my day, some photos, some video. I want you to know what it's like to work for Planned Parenthood.
Vita T: Emily wants us to know what she claims it’s like to work for the largest abortuary. She has invited us to come to work with her. So we will show you what’s its like to go to work with us. First a few words of clarification: a word about their "pledge per pro-lifer"—we have the same pledge going on. But we don't pledge dollars, we pledge our prayers, our lives and our discouragements, our disappointments. And, I know that ours goes a whole lot further. Prayer knows no boundaries and is not limited but multiplied by our love.
Emily X: 40-days for Life: September 26-November 4.
Vita T: This is the time period that Emily claims is for the 40-days for life. This is true, officially. The truth—we will continue as we always have—indefinitely. When Planned Parenthood and other abortuaries go away, so will we—in Aurora, Chicago, and all the 80+ cities nation and worldwide.
Emily X: But…we don't let them faze us. As for me, the more picketers there are, the harder I want to work.
Vita T: Yep, Emily, you’ll have to work harder, because lets face it, people are hearing, and grasping the Truth and are tired of the lies. And we are prepared for that. We are working ten times harder as well. And we are heard.
Emily X: Plus — the protesters aren't at many of our clinics (that would be pretty hard, since there are more than 800 clinics)
Vita T: Oh Emily, we are up for the challenge—I know you are not. You see we have Truth on our side. That trumps everything and can sustain everything.
Emily X: and…well, Planned Parenthood has been doing this for 90 years.
Vita T: And we—we’ve been at it for thousands of years—thousands.
Emily X: We're pretty good at making women and their families feel welcome and well cared for no matter what.
Vita T: We are not pretty good making people do anything. In fact we don’t make anyone do anything. You see, we do no coercion. We just speak the Truth. The women and their families always know that they still have a choice—a choice to have better than what you provide—no matter what.
Emily X commenter: This is amazing. I am an adjunct university lecturer with no benefits and low pay — if it were not for the wonderful and sliding-scale/reasonably priced care I receive at my local Planned Parenthood, I would be in trouble.
Vita T: There is no reasonable price to place on a life–the mother or the baby.
Emily X commenter: Accurate sex education, access to birth control and the option of an abortion is in my experience essemtial to women's equality in this and every other society I know. So much harm has been done to women (and their families!) out of ignorance and intolerance, when they were left in despair, when only bad alternatives were left available to them. The care I wish for every women is one that aims to understand her situation and supports her in whatever decision is right for her, one that treats her like someone whose life and life choices are worthy of respect. This is easy to understand for every woman who has ever faced such choices. In these our times, when the same forces that kept women suppressed and subordinate for centuries are at it again, it is important that we make our voices heard and do what needs to be done to keep our hard won freedom of choice over one of the most important decisions in a woman's life.
Vita T: Planned Parenthood gives inaccurate sex education. I have seen the explosive cartoons their about condoms and birth control and pregnancy. I am in the medical field. I am also a mother. I did not come from a wonderful family environment. I was not educated by my parents about sex. Yet sex is an innate action. It does not need step-by-step direction introduced at age 10 or sooner. We are not ignorant. I am tolerant and appreciate that it is your choices that you are making and not mine. I have been faced with many of these choices and many pro-lifers have. We only present the other choices since Planned Parenthood does not. We present the healthy behavior that prevents pregnancy and diseases. Planned Parenthood thrives on unhealthy behavior to promote their business. I am not suppressed or subordinate. I am a true feminist. In doing so, I defend myself from predators who wish to disrespect me. I have more respect for my body than allow anyone to have sex with me for entertainment, passing relationships etc. Have respect for yourselves.
Emily X commenter: I wish I could make these protesters understand how misguided their protests are and how much they are being used by people with a much more sinister agenda. Women can SAFELY receive the services they need. a woman does not need to be victimized and put down because of her beliefs. while these protesters do more damage to the visitors to PP than they realize
Vita T: See the black wall for the safety issue. More dead woman are added everyday. You believe in your choice. So be it. Be open to see that you may have other choices than what is presented to you there. The damage is done by PP.
Emily X commenter: All of you at PP are a Godsend, especially in today's times. Young women are getting the wrong information about sex in school and you are there to educate, help and protect them.
Vita T: The author of that wrong information about sex in schools? Planned Parenthood. You are thanking the very ones who promote the unsafer sex educations in your own schools! We are here to provide the Truth, to educate in that truth and protect them with the truth.
Emily X commenter: Many of those anti- choice fanatics can be dangerous and will actually threaten doctors with violence, as we have so horribly witnessed in Florida some years back. The physician speaking in this video, bless her heart, risks her life everyday to help provide poor women with the same choices more privileged women have. I hope she is stay safe and has a supportive, caring & protective husband and siblings.
Vita T: I am very sorry for any act of violence. I truly am. I have said so many times. How many times must we say it? Nothing has been done violently, as you said, since "some years back" In the last 3 months, we have been assaulted, we have been shot at, we have had violence done to us. Yet we remain peaceful. The poor woman are those who are taken advantageous of by the un-lifers. Only the other day, a mentally ill girl was given an abortion after the PP "nurses" talked her into it. And the underaged serviced led in by escorts who are older men. These are the poor woman and girls and all the others who will be assaulted by incest because they are left unreported by PP.
Emily X commenter: Many things factored into that decision. None of the people outside asked me why I knew this was the right thing for ME. All they were concerned with was their belief that it would be the wrong thing for them to do. I do not believe that any woman that comes to the decision to have an abortion takes that decision lightly. The people inside that Planned Parenthood that day understood that. They asked why. They listened and understood I was making a well thought out choice. Today I have two great kids. I tell them every day that I am the luckiest mama in the whole world. I hope my daughter is never faced with the situation I was in. But, I am raising both of my kids to be strong, educated, trust in their abilities to handle anything that may come their way and to stand up for what they believe in. I think thats what Planned Parenthood is all about too.
Vita T: If you would give us a chance. Come over. Speak to us. We will listen. Why are you in such a rush? You have made an appointment? So? PP will gladly take your money another day if you choose to reschedule. You are a wonderful mama but not of two great kids—but three. You have one gone—forever. We will help you heal. I do not hope, but pray fervently that your daughter will never be faced with needing to chose to kill her baby. That there are many loving people ready to listen to her fears and help her in every way with her needs for shelter, medical care, food, clothes, anything.
That is what we are all about.
Always.
Next round: a day in the life of us in our job . . .
Thank you for reading and thank you for your support!
I am Vita T.
I am pro-woman. I am pro-mother. I am pro-father. I am pro-child. I am pro-life.
Can I just say yaaaaaaaaay…that EmilyX blog makes me so frustrated I can not even stand it. She doesn't even talk about the actual JOB all she does is complain about the protesters who REALLY are trying to help people. I am so glad somebody is finally writing something to counter that garbage.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:10 am
This web-blog is pretty consistent with everything else that PP does.
1. They "protect the identity of their employees" by using this name, Emily X, to mask their comments. If you have a message, say it. That makes people with REAL opinions, like Jill Stanek for one, look all the better when they don't spend all day hiding behind their keyboard. There's your pro-choice 'heroes' - ignore your enemy, then say mean things about them to a computer. Emily, I will be in Aurora on November 17 if you want to talk.
2. I was particularly mortified by "Nicholas" on Oct 24, who described his early appreciation for reproductive rights by being dragged along to PP as a child. "A small child being dragged into a PP clinic." Does that image send chills down anyone else's spine?
3. The site, run by PP, claims that their fund raiser is like a walk-a-thon. I haven't done a walk-a-thon since high school, but if I remember correctly, after I was done walking, I donated the money to someone else, not myself.
4. Here's to those PP workers that continue to claim that PP is responsible for preventing more abortions than we could ever hope to: We will also COMMIT far less than YOU could ever hope. What's your commit/prevent ratio?
5. Nicholas, sorry to go back to you buddy. But there's just something that really irks me about a guy that supports a company which covers up rape and believes that reproductive choice has only to do with one sex. I pray for the poor girl that might one day look to you for protection and support. Instead she will find that you are no such source, but instead choose to wear a green poncho for your substitute in those areas.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:18 am
Call me cynical, but I'm willing to bet the $5 I lost on yesterday's Colts game that "Emily X" is a low-level PP marketing shlep named Larry…..
Now really, would it suprise you?
November 5th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Elizabeth writes: "[T]hat EmilyX blog makes me so frustrated I can not even stand it."
Oddly enough, I have almost the opposite reaction to the Emily X blog. I find it encouraging that the abortion industry has decided they have to respond to the 40 Days for Life campaign this way.
It's like those evergreen trees here at the Planned Parenthood in Aurora. The only purpose for those trees is to block our view of the clinic workers; their consciences are so troubled by our humble presence there in prayer that they spent some $30,000 to try to keep from seeing us.
In the same way, they obsess about the pro-lifers praying at the Emily X clinic, neglecting to say much of anything about what Planned Parenthood is really all about. They have no defense for what they do—killing babies and poisoning women and girls—so they try to make it all about us.
And that's fine with me. The more they direct attention to us the better, because we actually are peaceful, prayerful and effective. And it's driving them nuts.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
"Call me cynical, but I'm willing to bet the $5 I lost on yesterday's Colts game that "Emily X" is a low-level PP marketing shlep named Larry….."
I love that! This PP blog thing has really been bugging me, but from now on I'm going to picture poor Larry hammering out this nonsense for a few bucks. Really, the onus is on "Emily X" to identify herself and exactly what she does at PP. Otherwise, how are we to know that she (or he) is not seriously misrepresenting her(him)self in order to manipulate others. It certainly wouldn't be the first time!
Erin
November 5th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Erin,
Leave it to us "religious nuts" to actually be so credulous as to believe that Emily X is a really person. I have tried to internalize the last part of Matthew 10:16 when it comes to PL…."therefore be as shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves". Meaning you have to think like a serpent while maintaining your own purity of motive. Snakes (euphemistically) often pretend to be something other than what they are…hence my suspicions of "Emily X".
November 5th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Sorry–I meant "real" person, not a "really" person…stupid spell check!
November 5th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
My church normally does a prayer walk in our immedate community the first Sunday evening of the month. We decided to to take our prayer walk out to pp. As we stood there praying 3year year olds to 70 year olds quietly praying a van drove by and one of the passengers screamed GO HOME! I find it amazing that they can say we are violent. As for the evergreens they planted…… I have one thing to say, just because they planted trees doesn't mean that they can hide from God. I pray all hose trees turn brown and die!!!
November 5th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Maybe she uses the pseudonym Emily X because she has a legitimate fear about pro lifers Identifying her and committing some act of violence. If you read her most recent blog post, she talks about one of her coworkers being shot to death at his home for working at an abortion clinic.
Also, Vita, that's a nice bunch of strawmen you have responded to.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Also; you all seem to love saying the hedge is there because prochoicers are afraid of your prayers. Are you really all that naive? The hedge is there because they don't want their patients to harassed and intimidated as they go in for medical care.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Jason,
Once again, you must not be familiar with this clinic, as the hedges are around the back, by the employee entrance, and where the only sidewalk is. The patient entrance is on the other side. The only people that can see us are the employees. And all we do there is pray, so obviously, they don't want to see us pray. This has all been covered before here. Just because you keep saying the same thing doesn't make it so.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Eric, that is an interesting take on the EmilyX blog and I never really thought of it that way. I suppose I just let it frustrate me because I know that we are peacefully protesting and she is misrepresenting us. But you do make some good points..obviously if we were having no effect, PP wouldn't find it necessary to blog about us. Seems we're pretty important these days!
Elizabeth
November 5th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Renee; Your group isn't the only one coming to protest. Other, more intimidating groups may come. Perhaps the hedge is to protect their employees from harassment and intimidation.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
People can harass and yell and shout through a hedge if they so desire. This hasn't happened at this clinic, but a hedge wouldn't stop that. No, the hedge stops the employees that are out having their numerous smoke breaks from having to look at their peers standing in opposition to them. So be it.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Jason,
Thanks for your comments. If you look at this more objectively you might be able to see the forest for the trees.
PP is trying to hide themselves — not from the intimidation or harassment as you have suggested, but from mocking the law and the Lord’s wishes. Let me ask you, when you do something that is wrong, do you want people to know about it? I doubt it. You may attempt to hide the fact – hide the truth; here, we have the same thing. They know they have broken the law. They know they are violating the Lord’s wishes. And now, they want to turn their plot of land into a “bunker” to hide their sin.
I have been to the site on numerous occasions and can tell you that the only violence and intimidation that occurs there is against the pro-lifers.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Charles - Thank you for your comments. When I am out there no one is yelling, harrassing or intimidating anyone.
Jason - it has been 10 yrs since there has been an act of violence against an abortion clinic. And those people who acted in violence are NOT PRO-LIFE. If I was on a jury, I would have convicted them of their crimes. Taking a life, even the life of an abortionist is murder. Vengence is God's not mine. He will judge those who kill unborn children. It is our (PLers) job to continue to tell and show the truth in love, compassion and grace. Not in anger or hatred.
Try not to believe everything PP tells you. Most of it is lies.
November 5th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
I don't know how many of you got, much less read, the Aurora borealis, or whatever they call the city newsletter that just came out this week. I found it interesting that Mayor Weisner found it necessary to write an article about Planned Parenthood in the "Transforming Aurora" section. He's certainly right…
Anyway, what really disturbed me was when he wrote "To my knowledge, nobody advised the city that Planned Parenthood intended to occupy the entire building and offer abortion services until it became public knowledge in late July."
I may be reading into this statement, but it seems to acknowledge that the city knew that Planned Parenthood would indeed be moving into the neighborhood, but that they would be sharing the premises, to some extent, with another organization. Of course, they seem to claim they had no knowledge that Planned Parenthood would perform abortions, but this is not a given since the statement reads "…occupy the entire building AND offer abortion services…" Their reasoning could very well be "We knew PP was going to open there and we knew they were going to perform abortions, but we didn't know they were going to occupy the ENTIRE building AND perform abortions!"
While this latter point is most likely just speculation, it certainly does appear to me that Mayor Weisner is admitting that the city did indeed have some level of knowledge that Planned Parenthood would be opening a clinic of one type or another at their current location. It seems that the calls for full disclosure by the city of all knowledge of Planned Parenthood's plans were justified and should only be amplified by the mayor's article.
November 5th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Tara; Regardless, prolifers still have the threat of violence behind their words, whether they intend it or not. The bulletproof glass isn't to keep bullets from flying out of the building.
Renee; You may not be calling names, but others are. You know that people have been out there with pictures of aborted fetuses at the very least. If they don't want people yelling at their employees and trying to intimidate them, that's their right.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Why do we have a threat of violence behind our words. What "words" give the threat? I would like to know.
Yes others (PP) are calling the names—PP is calling us names: liars, terrorists and the like. You have nothing to be afraid of with us. We are out there often defending LIFE. Don't you see, violence is contradictory to that!!
I assure you that violent people will not come because THEY know us as peaceful prayer people who WILL NOT tolerate violence. We are not kooks. We are for life–the mother, the baby, the PP staff, our peaceful workers.
The reason for the glass is simple–a costly way to give the impression that they are the good and the good are the evil. I read that somewhere lately—not sure where???? "the good will be called evil and the evil called good"????
November 5th, 2007 at 11:06 pm
Prayers for babies,
Prayers for girls,
Prayers for mothers,
Prayers for grandmothers,
Prayers for fathers,
Prayers for sons,
Prayers for daughters,
Prayers for peace,
Prayers for Jesus that will never cease.
Prayers through the bushes,
Prayers along the street,
While marching around the building,
Praying on our knees,
Praying that God's will be done,
Praying for holy families,
Praying for parents,
Praying for their plans,
Praying to the Sacred Heart,
Praying the words He taught to us.
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed
be Thy Name; Thy Kingdom come:
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive
us our trespasses as we forgive those who
trespass against us. And lead us not into
temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen
November 5th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Jason, those pictures of aborted fetus's are violent. But that violence is perpetrated by Planned parenthood and not us. The threat to your safety comes once you go into that house of horrors.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
I received a flyer in the mail from this organization this afternoon. Can I just say that I am horrified by the comments that were made and the accusations that are made towards Planned Parenthood and the way the "facts" were miscontrued. I am a public health worker, a young female, and a fellow pro-lifer, but wow!get the facts and the knowledge straight before sending misconstrued uneducational information to the homes of many.
"Facts" and the REAL FACTS:
**Flyer: "Recommends sexually explicit materials for children as young as nine years old. Provides sex-ed materials to children that are far too graphic to be described here. Strongly opposes proven-effective abstinence education programs. Distributes condoms, birth control pills and abortion drugs to teens…"
**REAL FACTS: Do you know why PP does these above mentioned things? Ladies how old were you when you had your first menstrual cycle? Parents, have you ever seen a nine or ten year old pregnant? Families, have you ever seen the news about a child being raped or sexually abused? Parents have you talked to your child about sex?
Answers: I was nine when I had my first menstrual cycle, old enough to get pregnant, yet not quite old enough to know what sex was or what the consequences of actions were. And if you haven't seen young pregnant children, I HAVE seen multiple pregnant children under the age of eleven. Upon questioning, these children had no idea what the consequences of their actions were or what they were even doing. I see these children in my hospital (I'm a social worker) and help them find medical assistance to treat themselves and their baby, educational opportunities during and after pregnancy, and help them apply for medical cards. If we can't get teenagers to stop having sex, let's at least educate them on safety and give them preventative measures to use instead of ignoring the situation. Let's fight the real battle…stopping these pregnancies before they start….What about EDUCATION and PREVENTION?! Trying to teach children about what sex is, what are the consequences, and what you can do to protect oneself. These "explicit" materials are the ones that make a child stop and think about their actions. I remember going to the health museum at ten years old and seeing a picture of a blackened lung from smoking cigarettes, I vowed then that I would never let that happen to me…same goes for sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy. Also, in a society that lacks affordable options for health care, PP provides an affordable option to get contraceptives and condoms, which is beneficial for children that are afraid to talk to their parents about their choices, but still need protections. (for me, I work in a Catholic hospital and my insurance doesn't pay for my birth control methods, but Planned Parenthood does so affordably)
Instead of fighting against Planned Parenthood, why don't you fight to reduce unwanted pregnancy, sex education in school aimed at prevention and education? Or fight to get affordable medical treatment for everyone? Through HARM REDUCTION and EDUCATION and PREVENTION Planned Parenthood is starting this fight…….what have you personally done to stop unwanted pregnancies? Let's fight the right battle.
Melissa
Masters in Public Health Candidate
Outreach Social Worker
Naperville resident
November 6th, 2007 at 12:08 am
Jason,
In regards to your comment regarding Emily X, “…legitimate fear about pro lifers Identifying her and committing some act of violence. If you read her most recent blog post, she talks about one of her coworkers being shot to death at his home for working at an abortion clinic.”
I would like to quote Mark Crutcher in his October 11 blog post, as I think he does a great job summing this up.
[L]et’s put this “pro-life violence” myth to rest once and for all. Even if you focus on the time period during which the most violence was committed against the abortion industry, it is clear that all of this arm-flapping and hand-wringing about pro-life violence is nonsense. Of the seven murders that have occurred at American abortion mills in the last 34 years, five occurred in 1993 and 1994 alone. However, according to statistics from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, during those same two years there were 2,154 other people killed in work-related homicides in the United States including seven school teachers, four members of the clergy, 10 lawyers, nine newspaper vendors, seven writers, six realtors, 22 waiters or waitresses, four groundskeepers, five architects, 40 garage or service station attendants, 23 auto mechanics, 21 janitors, 10 hairdressers, six farmers and four carpenters.
In other words, during the period of the greatest violence against abortionists in history, more farmers and twice as many hairdressers were murdered on the job than abortion clinic workers and abortionists combined. This does not even take into account the taxi drivers, convenience store employees, police officers, firefighters, and others who were killed during that same time period.
November 6th, 2007 at 12:32 am
Mellissa,
How can you call yourself pro-life and support PP? They fought all the way to the Supreme Court for the right to delievr babies to the chest, puncture their head with a scissors and suck the babies brains out. Viable babies mind you. Why should we trust them if this is their mindset.
Nobody on the pro-life side disagrees that education is necessary to keep teenage (or younger girls) from getting pregnant. But PP is part of the problem. The education they provide is perverse to stopping unwanted pregancies. They are not teaching children the right things, like there are limits and borders to what you should do sexually with or without birth control.
What do I do to stop unwanted pregnancies? I teach children responsibility and sexual restraint. I make EVERY effort to expose rape and rapists in order to take them off the streets.
Please Melissa, answer me one question about PP. Why do they need to hide the rape of young girls? Why are they not at the forefront of prosecution for the rape of these minors? They are involved in the processing of more of these children than anybody else. Please give me an answer to why they are NOT at the forefront and the US leader in pursuing those rapists. Instead they refuse to release the information and don't even feel it necessary to notify the parents of these victimized minors. They are predators, we don't like them, we don't like their agenda, and we can get contraceptives from a thousand other places if we want them.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:08 am
Melissa, I want you to know that I was listening to your post and I can understand what you said about not be able to afford contraceptives elsewhere, but you are making a deal with a deceitful, murderous corporation to get them.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:21 am
Mellisa,
Maybe we could get pictures of aborted fetuses as part of our childrens sex eduacation program. It could be used as a warning to them to avoid the PP building. Those photos of aborted children would likely have the same effect on children as seeing a blackened lung had on you at age nine.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:37 am
Charles, I love your comment. Do you have a source for that (seven total, five in 93-94, and other professions)? It's pretty powerful and dead on in its message.
Of course, the goal number would be zero - but those numbers absolutely amaze me, especially given the (understandable but wholly improper) life-saving goals of the violence in the first place. I would have guessed that more had occurred, even ignoring all the propaganda that says otherwise.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:59 am
Re: Mary Lu's Comment #19:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
and shrewd in their own sight!
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine,
and valiant men in mixing strong drink,
who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
and deprive the innocent of his right!
Isaiah 5:20-23
(RSV Catholic Edition)
November 6th, 2007 at 8:22 am
Melissa,
Are you suggesting that websites like http://www.positive.org, http://www.sexetc.og, http://www.itsyorsexlife.org and I could go on are appropriate for teens and pre-adolescents? You should know better as a health worker, that being exposed to pornography does serious damage to this age group.
These are websites that PP calls resources for good information.
I would never allow my children on those sites. They have graphic sexual images and animation. These websites also counsel girls how to get around parental notification/consent laws. And again as a health worker you are aware that girls who have parents involoved in that decision are significantly less likely to have an abortion. This is counter to PP's agenda. You cannot be pro-life and for PP. It is an oxymoron.
If you have not been to these sites check them out.
November 6th, 2007 at 8:54 am
Melissia,
found a typo http://www.itsyoursexlife.com
November 6th, 2007 at 8:55 am
"The hedge is there because they don't want their patients to harassed and intimidated as they go in for medical care"
If you look at where the hedge is located, it is along the sidewalk, where we stand, NOT where their patients are coming in… the hedge is nowhere near the door where patients enter.
The hedge just another layer of fencing between the prolifers and the building. And we have neither harassed nor intimdiated the patients- we have simply prayed for them and offered them help.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Hello Melissa,
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I can see how people, such as yourself, can be lead into believing the anecdotal argument that greater access to “choice” and birth control could lead to less unwanted and terminated pregnancies. However, I am just not sure the data supports this position. Please consider the following.
Prochoiceamerica.org has conducted their state by state review of women’s access to (so called) healthcare services. In their review they looked at the following metrics to determine the grade: state legislation affecting “choice”, access to birth control, insurance coverage for contraception, access to abortion, etc. Each state is then given a grade. Those states with the greatest access to services receive high grades while those that don’t receive low ones. Care to guess which States earned the highest marks? (hint: New York and California) You can check this for yourself by going here. So, if we agree to your postulate, that greater access to “choice” and birth control reduces abortions — then let’s compare the abortion rates of these states against those which have a grade of “F” - let’s say Kentucky. Please take a look at this page - showing abortion data by state. (Please note the section titled - abortions by residents, in/out of state – and the definition therein) Then note the abortion rate of in state abortions for New York (32.0) and then look at Kentucky (6.3).
Based on this empirical data, I find it difficult to believe that greater access to “choice” and birth control leads to less unwanted and terminated pregnancies. Now, wouldn’t you agree?
November 6th, 2007 at 11:24 am
Tara:
PERHAPS Melissa is NOT the health care worker s/he claims to be. PERHAPS that is EmilyX/Larry speaking!??! Perhaps.
November 6th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
NM -
Maybe you are right. But in any case, she is wrong on PP and I would never want her to talk to my children.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Eric:
As for what you wrote in Comment #4, allow me to publicly say "ditto" towards every syllable, on my behalf.
Posters on display in PP's window at LaSalle & Division are prime exhibits of the obsession you mentioned.
The verbal hatred spewed aloud directed at me by one pedestrian who decided to interrupt my prayer time while along-side the Chicago mill reached a level that brought forth a second pedestrian to instruct them: "Stop that right now! Get away from her!". I remain grateful to God that no physical harm came to me and I do maintain boldness to not cease.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Tara:
I'm on your side! Because Melissa defends PP is why Comment #32 was written.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
In #24, Paul2 says (referring to Planned Parenthood, I believe):
"They are predators, we don't like them, we don't like their agenda, and we can get contraceptives from a thousand other places if we want them."
Is Paul2 saying that contraceptives/artificial birth control are NOT part of the problem with Planned Parenthood/abortion?
Many forms of artificial birth control including the Pill can cause very early abortions by preventing implantation of the newly conceived child in the lining of the womb. See the following website for more information:
http://www.all.org/article.php?id=10126&search=pill
November 6th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
NM -
I thought you were on my side. I am sorry if you thought otherwise. What I meant was that even if she wasn't Emily X in disguise, that I would never want that kind of "health professional" to talk to my kids or any others. She would leave them right down the wrong path.
November 6th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
I'm just wondering because I haven't spent any time at PP (just drove by on two occasions), can you see the patients as they come in or out? I thought the design was so that they would not be seen from the sidewalk. But I've read some say they have seen women crying or lying in the back seat etc. How can you see?
November 6th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Brian -
We can see, bc we stand across the street in front of the fence. We watch the girls go in and watch them come out. They drive right by us. So we see them as they come out holding their stomaches and crying. We hurt with them. We would have loved to talk with her, but being across the street doesn't give us the opportunity. We hear their boyfriends telling them as they are crying it's for the best baby. These girls come out white as sheets. We have seen minors going in with older men, but no police have come to investigate. We have seen minors going in with their boyfriends. I bet their parents have no idea. We have even seen cars from MI, IN, IA, WI. They all have parental notification/consent laws and IL does not.
It is very sad to watch. My heart breaks each time a baby is lost, and a girl's life has forever been damaged.
November 6th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
That is more than sad—no words to describe. Please, Jesus help these poor girls—console their grieving and keep them safe from now on.
November 6th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Tom,
I personally don't use contraception or recommend it. I was just responding to Melissa's post that she supports PP because they provide her with low cost contraceptives.
Look at my post #25. Just trying to let Melissa know that even if she wants to use contraception she should try to get it elsewhere cause PP is a murderous, deceitful organization.
November 6th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
All I have to say is, "It does NOT take a village."
To expect that the government should have the duty of educating our kids on every single matter is OUTRAGEOS. We as parents need to take the lead on how our children respect, behave and become responsible adults, not sit on the side and be support only. I sat at a meeting assembled by the local United Methodist Church with Planned Parenthood Chicago in the room participating. I kept hearing the chant of how these kids are not taught correctly. I have sympathy to that arguement, however parents are not challenged by clergy in the Church I go to, however Parishiners are challenged when they go to Holy Cross. I have seen it, because I go with my wife also.
Noone wants to be the bad guy, everyone wants to be accepted and liked, but our youth needs people to respect, parents are the most logical option, but parents are being good guys, without enforcing any rules. Rules about respect, rules about behavior and according to the proborts rules about sex and sanctity for life.
November 6th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Dan,
We can all have sympathy for the fact that some kids are not being taught correctly, but how does that give PP the right to teach them incorrectly? I don't get it.
November 6th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Dan, it does not take a village, but it helps if the village is not taught by heathen like PP.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
What do you think happened to the PP Emily X blog site. There was no entry since Friday?
November 6th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Charles;
Those people weren't murdered because of their job. No one kills a carpenter for building bridges or a hairdresser for cutting hair. People do however kill clinic workers for the sole reason that they're clinic workers.
How old are you? Did you really not see the difference?
November 6th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
OK, I guess that was a little unfocused, however I believe Abortion ushered in or made possible, the sexual revelution. This "revolution" was rooted in irresponsibility. Now the irresponsibility gives Planned Parenthood a way to "Generate Revenue"
I would like to get back to Johns comment about his veiw on abortion as a newcommer to Christianity.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Tara; Yea, those websites are completely appropriate. Why should teens and adolescents know about basic human anatomy, reproduction and the possible consequences of sex and how to help prevent them?
November 6th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Tara,
I am saddened by hearing about all the girls coming out of PP..I can't be up there as much as I would like going to school and taking care of my daughter but I go when I can. I'm sure it would make me feel very sad if I were out there every day as well. I will pray that you and all the other out there stay strong in the face of such adversity and sadness.
Elizabeth
November 6th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Jason,
You can't really be that naive. Your joking that those sites are totally appropriate aren't you. They don't just teach anatomy, they teach promiscuity. They promote sex without responsibility. And if PP wanted to be honest about teaching the consequences of sex they should show aborted babies as a consequence since that is primarily what they provide to these children who do get pregnant.
November 6th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Dan,
I also enjoy John's probing analysis of life's issues. And I enjoy yours as well. Thanks and keep it coming.
November 6th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
There can be no reasonable defense. God will certainly turn his anger on the United States of America if we do not repent. Barbarous and evil.. It is murder….Just cause it is legalized does not change what is actually being done right in our back yard……The pictures of the baby parts do not lie…woe, woe, woe, woe I say
November 7th, 2007 at 2:59 am
Paul:
Refrence the part of the site that tells kid to round around having unprotected sex, because I don't see it.
Also, they're not babies, they're fetuses
November 7th, 2007 at 3:09 am
Jason,
I agree, children should know basic A&P. Isn't that why we have A&P/Biology classes? My kids use the correct terminology for thier body parts. But I also teach my kids to respect themselves. That their bodies are not for everyone.
As far as though sites - positive.org they tell kids different ways to have sex, they have animated penises moving, they show them with pictures how to do certain sex acts with objects, they tell them what to do with multiple partners (three-somes) and they tell girls how to get around parental notification/consent laws. So yes I have a HUGE problem with these sites. This is not appropriate for kids.
Are you a parent? I am and these sites are garbage. I am not a prude, I'm realistic. These images are harmful. Have you read any research on what happens to the brain when exposed to this stuff?? Teaching kids to abstain and respect themselves is completely acceptable. You want a 100% effecive way to prevent STDs and pregnancy DON'T HAVE SEX until you're married.
And when we as parents raise the bar our children want to meet the challenge. We raise the bar in education, in sports, and in hobbies. Why not for sexual behavior. We've just been told for the last 30 years that free love and sex are awesome and has no harmful side effects. I think by having 4000 abortions performed everyday (50+ million since 1973), the rise of STD's among teens and young adults (even with the push of "safe sex") has been extremely harmful.
November 7th, 2007 at 9:09 am
"They're not babies. They're fetuses." A fetus is a baby in utero. I don't know why you would think that your comment is clever enough for a smiley face.
By the way, do you have any kids? When your child moved in his or her mother's womb, did you say "my fetus kicked?"
November 7th, 2007 at 11:01 am
This pro-abort chant "they're fetuses not babies" is getting lamer every time I hear/ read about it.
"If it's not a baby, she's not pregnant!!"
(as the shirt says)
It's 'how's your baby? ' not 'how's your fetus'?
It's a boy/girl! not it's a boy/girl fetus!
November 7th, 2007 at 11:53 am
Jason,
Many people are murdered because of, or in relation to, their occupation. In my younger days I worked at a gas station. Do you think I had a chance of being killed? How about a person working at a bank? Do think they have a chance of being killed? What about a bank or armored car guard – any chance they might be killed on the job? How about a police officer? Any chance they might be murdered on the job. Or perhaps murdered because they are investigating something? Some are even murdered for “just” being police officers. How about those being murdered for their religious beliefs?
All of the people employed in these occupations have a greater chance of being murdered than a clinic worker. Just look at the data – statistically and empirically.
Oh, and by the way, I am old enough. I am a parent – how about you? I know right from wrong. I know that abortion is dead-wrong. And I will raise my child to know the same – how about you?
November 7th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
John 8:44-45
"You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your fathers desires. He was a murderer from the begining and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth you do not believe me."
John 8:47
"Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not listen, because you do not belong to God."
Jesus
November 7th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Tara;
A&P classes aren't offered until late highschool, at least in the aurora area, and then not all schools have them. Biology classes don't really start until highschool, and even then, from what I remember, reproductive biology isn't part of the curriculum.
I find it odd that you think animated penises, in an educational context, are inappropraite. Would any other animation of human anatomy be offensive?
You also mention that it shows how to use sex toys, sexual positions, and how to get by consent laws.
Everyone, or at least virtually everyone, masturbates. And from an early age. They may as well use resources that teach them how to do it properly and safely. As odd as that sounds, there is such a thing as dangerous masturbation, especially for woman. EG Using sharp, dangerous objects as dildos, unsafe/improper products as lubricants, etc.
I looked over positive and can't find any of this though. I'd agree that an internet kama sutra is inappropriate for adolescents/preteens but is completely appropriate for teenagers. If teens are going to have sex, have researched the consequences and how to do it as safely as possible (STD testing/Birth control), they as may as well enjoy it as much as possible too. There's no reason for sex to be awkward and uncomfortable. And that is pretty far from obscene.
I haven't seen the guide on how to get by parental consent laws, but I've already listed off the arguments for it in several other post in different threads. Basically, if you need to find a way to get by the parental consent laws for abortions, there's probably a good reason the kid isn't telling their parents.
Paul2: C'mon, dude. They teach responsibility and you know it. They emphasize birth control, STD testing, and being safe.
I haven't seen a single thing on any of those sites that say "Hey, sex is awesome, go out and have sex with banger gangs and make sure you don't use a rubber because that kills the sensation and only sailors use condoms."
Teens have sex, whether you like it or not, whether I like it or not. Hey, I agree that most teens are too stupid to be having sex and should wait until their older. However, they're going to do it. They've been doing it since the dawn of time. Keeping information from them on how to be safe on how to do it right is only going to hurt them.
Brian/Ramir/whoever else: You all, I assume, know the prochoice arguments. I wasn't trying to be cute. You're not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. The only thing that will change your mind, I assume, is if that if someone close to you has an unplanned pregnancy.
And Ramir, that's semantics. Everyone calls a lectern a podium, it doesn't make a lectern a podium.
Charles; Again, that's a risk associated with the job. No one was going to kill you because they had a problem with gas station clerks. There are no websites or organizations or protesters seeking to intimidate clerks into no longer selling funions and faygo. No one is going to break into your home to kill you because you gave they don't like the color of your work uniform. Some cops are killed and targeted just for being cops. It's just as despicable as clinic workers being killed because they're clinic workers. And both have a legitimate reason to be fearful for their safety.
What exactly are you trying to argue for? That clinic workers are sissy and need to grow thicker skin? Just because there hasn't been a murder in ten years doesn't mean there won't be one again in the near future, especially with the prolife movement gaining momentum. You never know who is going to be attracted to the movement and what they'll do to stop abortion. Also, I mentioned Emily X's coworkers have a perfectly valid fear because one of their friends had someone break into their home and assassinate them, just because he worked for PP.
Also, you know abortion is dead wrong? I know abortion isn't dead wrong. I know the world is made up of shades of gray.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Kathi;
"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret…" (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV)
Your own god pretty much calls you out on being a hypocrite.
Really though, what's the point of posting self serving bible quotes while arguing with someone who isn't religious? I don't believe in god (again, if you have proof I'm more than ready to see and examine it). And beyond that, the god portrayed in the bible is a wicked, blood thirty entity.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
"The only thing that will change your mind, I assume, is if that if someone close to you has an unplanned pregnancy."
——————————————
I have people close to me that HAD unplanned pregnancies…they either chose Motherhood or Adoption!
Abortion is wrong, whether legal or not…and the world is not gray..it's black and white…it's grey only to those whose ethical standards, morality, and positions of right or wrong are culturally based and are subject to a person's individual choice.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Kathi;
Actually, that was a bit unfair of me. Jesus is actually a pretty alright figure and I'm on board with pretty much everything he says. However, he introduced the concept hell, so I'd argue it makes him worse then the old testament god. Any suffering the old testament god could inflict on you was infinite, when jesus came about, he introduced the idea of endless suffering for all of eternity.
Other than eternal torture, Jesus is alright. Love your neighbor, be the bigger man, all those are excellent ideas.
Ramir; The world is black and white? Wow, that kind of thinking has caused untold violence and bigotry throughout history. I'd bring up the example of rape. If a woman conceives a child through rape, and you are prolife, I assume you would think it's fine and preferable to legally force the women to carry the child to term. But isn't that wrong on some level, insuring that woman's body is forced to go through the burden of pregnancy completely against her will when she had no say in getting pregnant?
We need to seek to understand one another. Black and white thinking doesn't do that and only divides people. I would prefer it if there was never another abortion ever again, but I would also hate to see woman forced, for nearly a year, to do something they don't want to do. Or suffer the after effects of pregnancy.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Jason, please stop with the derogatory remarks- you're really not helping your own case…
November 7th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Jason,
I find it odd that you think animated penises, in an educational context, are inappropraite. Would any other animation of human anatomy be offensive?
- It's not in an educational setting. My first grader is learning basic A&P, it just isn't called that. I have no problem using A&P books. I'm an personal trainer and I use A&P books. That's educational.
There's no reason for sex to be awkward and uncomfortable. And that is pretty far from obscene.
- Do you have kids? I have asked plenty of parents to look at this website and others and they all said they would never want their children to look at it. They see it as soft porn. The langage they use are crude and gross using the lowest form of vocabulary to get their point across. That is not educational!
Just bc teens are having sex doesn't make it right. Girls especially get emotionally damaged when they are engaged in risky sexual behavior. Drug and Alcohol abuse rises among teenagers who are involved in sexual behavior.
I haven't seen the guide on how to get by parental consent laws, but I've already listed off the arguments for it in several other post in different threads.
WRONG - the most common reason is embarrasment. They don't want mom and dad to be upset. Often times teens overreact to what their parents might say and do. There is judicial bypass and those who have been abused can get help. PP has a history of not informing authorities when a girl is under age and coming in for abortions w/ older boyfriends.
positive.org - resources - parental notification:
Usually you can get around telling your parents by going to a clinic in a state without these restrictions
November 7th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
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November 7th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Tara;
"It's not in an educational setting. My first grader is learning basic A&P, it just isn't called that. I have no problem using A&P books. I'm an personal trainer and I use A&P books. That's educational."
Alright, but is reproductive anatomy a part of that? The only sex education we got, and I went to district 204 and graduated highschool in 2004, was a trip to the Robert Crown institute in 5th grade which was basic reproductive anatomy, IE sperm meets egg, and a week or two in a health class in highschool which acted a scare class (a bunch of slideshows showing genital warts/chlamydia/etc.). There was no talk of birth control or any preventive measures that could be taken, how diseases spread, and so on.
Luckily I had smart parents and access to resources like planned parenthood to anwser those questions and provide that information so that when I did enter sexual relationships in highschool and beyond, I knew how to be safe and what precautions to take. Me and my partners get tested AT planned parenthood. It's cheap and convenient (How many other doctors allow walk ins?).
"- Do you have kids? I have asked plenty of parents to look at this website and others and they all said they would never want their children to look at it. They see it as soft porn. The langage they use are crude and gross using the lowest form of vocabulary to get their point across. That is not educational!
Just bc teens are having sex doesn't make it right. Girls especially get emotionally damaged when they are engaged in risky sexual behavior. Drug and Alcohol abuse rises among teenagers who are involved in sexual behavior."
I don't have kids. I just took a brief but closer look over the site and yea, they use some language they probably shouldn't (I'd prefer they use medical terms instead of slang), but it's hardly pronographic and I think they're making the mistake a lot of adults make in that they're trying to speak the way they think kids talk and talk on their level.
However, all the information is good and honest. They even give resources if you're abused or a victim of rape/incest/harrasment/hate crimes and they say, several times, that you don't have to have sex if you aren't ready or don't want to.
Honestly, what I'm seeing this website is better than anything we were ever exposed to in school.
Promiscuous sex does have the potential to cause sex, I agree and I don't think anyone should have Promiscuous sex or have sex unless they're ready. Again, you may not see it as right, but it doesn't change the fact it's happening. They should have every right to information that keeps them safe.
And promiscuous sex isn't the only kind of sex. There are teenagers who have been dating each other for years who have the potential to have a healthy sexual relationship. Even if you don't agree with that, keeping kids ignorant only turns them into ignorant adults. It's about harm prevention, none of these websites advocate risky sexual behavior, they all say otherwise.
And as far as the correlation between sex and drug use, correlation does not equal causation. I bet all those people who do heroin drink water. Risky decision making is the result of plenty of factors.
November 7th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Jason,
Do me a favor. Go to http:\www.priestsforlie.org\images
VMaybe you have not allowed yourself to see the "real" results of tearing apart "fetuses". View the pictures of aborted baby parts. Legal or not, look at these images, it is undeniably murder. If you can't see that then you are being blinded by alterior motives. There is no noble explanation for the horror. If PP educated the women going in by showing them these pictures instead of hiding it from them…supposedly for the sake of not causing them stress… give me a break, I thought you were a realist and wanted to promote education. You acn't deny those images, and you should not be able to deny it is murder. The courts will change eventually and women will NOT be allowed to kill these children. You support killing children when you support PP. And you will be held accountable. If you really believed in education then you would be in denial. Those are living babies with eyes, nose, brain, heart, arms, hands, spines, feet, toes. Why do you think it is o.k. to support killing them just because they are still in the womb? There is NO rational explanation except to put yourself in denial. If you were man enough to say "yah, it is killing", then I would consdider you to at least honest. But you put yourself in denial by calling them fetuses.. You are a coward and afraid to take responsibility for the procedures you so overtly support. Educate people about that.
November 7th, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Jason,
“Just because there hasn't been a murder in ten years doesn't mean there won't be one again in the near future … ”
It doesn’t mean that there will be another one either. Ten years seems like a long time now doesn’t it?
“.. with the prolife movement gaining momentum …”
Thanks for this compliment. I’m glad to see that we can agree on something.
Let me sum this all up for you – and I’ll attempt to be as succinct as possible.
The pro-life movement is a peaceful movement.
When looking at the statistics, the clinic workers have no rational basis to fear personal harm from the pro-lifers.
The clinic workers have a statically greater chance of being killed while driving to their job than being murdered because of their “work.”
There is no need to hide behind the veil of a pseudo-name like “Emily X” for “safety concerns” as the statistical data proves otherwise.
November 7th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
We need to seek to understand one another. Black and white thinking doesn't do that and only divides people. I would prefer it if there was never another abortion ever again, but I would also hate to see woman forced, for nearly a year, to do something they don't want to do. Or suffer the after effects of pregnancy.
————————————-
I agree on working together..but Abortion is one of those issues that there is no compromise. Either you are for it or against it.
November 7th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
God our Father, you establish the order which governs all ages. Here our prayer and grant us peace in our time as we rejoice in your glory and praise you without end. Mary, Queen of Peace, look upon us kindly. Through your prayers obtain for us the gift of peace which your son promised. We ask this through the same Lord Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace. The son of God and the son of Mary, who lives and reigns with the Father and the Holy Spirit one God forever and ever. Amen.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Jason, if you truly did not know it was murder then you can be forgiven.
November 7th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
actually Paul2, one can be forgiven (if one repents) even if they knew it was murder.
November 8th, 2007 at 12:08 am
Absolutely Mary. I was not meaning to exclude repentance as a way to forgiveness. I was just pointing out what Jesus said while he was dying on the cross for us.
November 8th, 2007 at 1:16 am
And we could all use a lot more of repentence and a lot less of not knowing what we are doing.
November 8th, 2007 at 1:18 am
Mary if your out there sorry, that last post was actually meant for Mary2
Paul2
November 8th, 2007 at 1:24 am
Jason,
It is NOT the schools job to teach kids how to have sex. It is the parents job. We (parents) give schools way to much influence over you guys.
I am actually worried that you said that you have had multiple partners. You are what 20/21? How many of those girls you've been with can you honestly say that you loved? Or did you just care for the moment? I'm not being mean. When you finally settle down, how are you going to feel if your wife had sex with a multitude of other men before you? How might she feel that you did the same? You bring every partner you've ever been with into your marraige. Think about it. I've had many conversations with men who are bothered by the fact that their wives had been with others before them, and they had feelings of jealousy. It is not something that is talked about often, but should.
You see sex isn't about you, what you feel, what you want, what you need. It's about making your spouse feel wanted, loved, needed. It is not a selfish act. That is why sex should be only in the bounds of marriage.
I know, you're thinking get with it lady. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't understand what it is like today. But I do. I used to think the way you do. If teens want to have sex what's the big deal. Even though I wouldn't who am I to say someone else shouldn't. It is a very big deal.
So maybe someday when you are married and have kids, you might just have a different opinion when a guy wants to have sex with your daughter just bc it feels good, it's fun, it's what everyone else is doing, and there is no possiblity of any future with him. Think about it.
November 8th, 2007 at 9:01 am
"I'd bring up the example of rape. If a woman conceives a child through rape, and you are prolife, I assume you would think it's fine and preferable to legally force the women to carry the child to term. But isn't that wrong on some level, insuring that woman's body is forced to go through the burden of pregnancy completely against her will when she had no say in getting pregnant?"
————————————————
What is wrong about letting the baby survive until adoption can happen?
Are you saying "kill the child for the sins of it's father?"
Nope, 2 wrongs do NOT ever make a right.
November 8th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Tara; I'm not saying schools should teach them how to have sex, but knowing what sex is and how it works isn't inappropriate, it's a part of life in the same way any other part of your anatomy is. Nutrition, reproduction, whatever.
You can tell the school to let your kids sit out of those classes if your truly offended, but there are plenty of incompetent or uncomfortable parents who won't tackle the subject and it's not right that they should have to suffer because of their ignorance.
And I would actually be uncomfortable if I married a women and she had never had sex. I flat out wouldn't do it. What If I married her and she was bad in bed? Or she wasn't willing to do things I wanted to try and never felt like moving beyond boring missionary sex with the lights out. Sexual chemistry is very important in a marriage and you don't know if you and your partner have that chemistry until you have sex.
As far as men or women you know being uncomfortable with their spouses having had sex previously, that, to me, is simple insecurity. I honestly don't understand that, and I wouldn't want a partner who had those insecurities.
And sex isn't a selfish act? Sure, I'll agree with that, selfish lovers are crappy lovers, but it's not a selfless act either.
Also, I don't ever plan on getting married. There are plenty of people like me. There are plenty of homosexuals who can't get married because it's against the law for some crazy reason. Sexual pleasure shouldn't be the sole domain of married people.
And If I have a daughter, I'll do the best of my ability to make sure she knows about safe sex, not to hate her sexuality, and how not to put herself in a position to be hurt emotionally and try to get her to wait until she's an adult before she has sex. But again, I'll make sure she has all the other information in case she doesn't listen.
Paul; A coward? C'mon, man. I looked at the late term abortion photos and yea, it's unsettling. But murder? I don't think so. It's all about when life begins, what makes a human, etc. Again, we're not going to change each other's minds on that issue.
But again, even if I were to concede a fetus was a child, I would still support a woman's right to abortion and there are still plenty of arguments for legal abortion. The most compelling is the issue of bodily domain. If the only way that I could stay alive was being hooked up for you for the next 10 months at great cost to you, should you have to do it and have no choice in the matter? As they say, if men were the ones to get pregnant, abortion would be a sacred right.
Ramir; How old are you? What about the woman who is forced to carry a child she had no say in? Forcing her to do that doesn't seem immoral at all?
November 8th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Jason-
Sex is a selfless act. It is making yourself completely vulnerable and open to another person. It is giving all that you are to that person in love. It is a complete union of souls as well as bodies. It is much more than you have ever experienced, reading between the lines of what you have written so far. Maybe your sex-ed didn't explain it right.
Erin
November 8th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
Erin;
Or maybe you have a poor sex life and are making sex out to be something it's not? We can go back and forth with "Nuh uh, my sex life is better" all day if you want.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
"Ramir; How old are you? What about the woman who is forced to carry a child she had no say in? Forcing her to do that doesn't seem immoral at all?"
———————————–
Jason..I am 40 …how old are you?
What's immoral about letting a child live or from the sounds of it, you would prefer to kill the baby, instead?
Rape is a very violent act imposed upon a woman…and you want to impose another violent act (abortion) on her, too?
November 8th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Jason-
I don't really care how good your sex life is. What I'm saying is, there should be an emotional component to sex that you are apparently missing–since you state you wouldn't marry a virgin in case she didn't do it right. It is this emotional component (including respect and commitment, not just "in love" "feels good") that is missing in the PP-style sex-ed. I think someday you'll figure it out, and say, "Whoa, that crazy pro-life lady was really on to something." But, maybe we should drop this line of discussion for now, because your right in that we can't prove anything in this type of exchange.
Erin
November 8th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
I don't think abortion was legalized b/c of rape victims, but I could be wrong. Abortion is immoral and while we all are not 100% correct all the time, except for our Precious Lord and Savior, our law makers made a huge mistake and this needs to be overturned. We can try to help those rape victims through counseling and prayers. Focusing on the Lord can get us through anything, and I mean anything. It's through trials that we are made strong and God turns the bad into good. Romans 8:28 and Romans 8:18.
God spoke and waved his arms and there was light and there were storms, wind and such. God could blink his eyes and miracles happen. How powerful is that? But when God made man he didn't wave his hand or speak a word, but formed him from dust and what???…..breathe life into him!!!!! Does anyone know when God breathes life into a baby???? You can never convince me that life of a baby starts at birth. Please read Job 38 thru 41 and then talk about "playing God".
God could blow down that abortion fortress right now and all its other buildings, but he will do it in his time and in his way and use his people to do it. He sees the bigger picture and we see a speck of that masterpiece. Trust the Lord, obey and follow him and he will guide you.
As for a man who is not a virgin and marries a virgin and would feel uncomfortable about that….. makes one wonder if he really loved her to begin with. His love and patience would guide her and vice versa and together their relationship would grow stronger. Plus maturity has a lot to do with it too.
Finally, I remember years ago there was a popular song out named "In the year 2525." Google it. It will give you some insight and youtube has 2 good videos on it.
God bless and again, I may be wrong, but not about God and this immoral act of killing innocent babies. Wake up people. I pray that God will remove the scales from your eyes and soften your heart and open your ears.
Thanks for listening.
November 8th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
http://www.sfuhl.org
Human babies from the moment of conception.
November 8th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Jason,
You said, "But again, even if I were to concede a fetus was a child, I would still support a woman's right to abortion and there are still plenty of arguments for legal abortion." The most compelling is the issue of bodily domain."
Please tell me more about about how a woman would still have the right to an abortion even if it means she is killing her child. Especially this most compelling bodily domain issue.
November 8th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Jason also said, "if the only way that I could stay alive was being hooked up for you for the next 10 months at great cost to you, should you have to do it and have no choice in the matter?"
Answer…..If I had created the circustance that made you need me to survive, then YES I must take care of you. It is called taking responsibility for your actions. And even if I did not create the circumstances I still could not leave another person to die if they needed my help to survive. There is no greater love then to lay down your life for a friend.
November 8th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Jason,
I just read about the "bodily domain" issue and I think it is a great principle. The issue relies heavily on the fact that a woman should not be "forced" to carry the baby because her "bodily domain" was infringed upon in order to get her pregnant. In most abortions the woman made a willing choice to have sex and then kills her baby cause she didn't mean to get pregnant and doesn't want to take the responsibility for the outcome of her willing actions. The "bodily domain" principle would not apply in these cases. If the bodily domain issue is your most compelling reason for legal abortion then only a small percentage of the abortions allowed today should be legal.
Also, if bodily domain is so important to you then why would you support PP. They hide the rape of young girls? If they cared about the principle of "bodily domain" being violated they would make every effort to get these rapists off the streets. Instead they help them avoid prosecution by refusing to release the information about them and don't even feel it necessary to notify the parents of victimized minors.
If you are really for protection of the bodily domain, then you would be angry as hell at PP for covering up the actions of the very men who violate the woman's bodily domain and helping them get away with rape.
November 9th, 2007 at 12:01 am
I'll tell you how I would protect the bodily domain of my daughter if she was raped.
1) I would get my daughter to the hospital immediately to make every effort to prevent the conception.
2) I would kill the rapist so my daughter would not have to live her life knowing he was out there and having to ever deal with him again.
I do my best to be Christian but I am no saint and I fall well short when it comes to turning the other cheek if somebody attacks my loved ones.
November 9th, 2007 at 12:20 am
Oh, and about the baby if she did get pregnant. I would encourage her not to hurt the child and offer her all the support I could.
November 9th, 2007 at 12:25 am
The argument regarding "bodily domain" is silly. By the same token, one would then agree that someone should lawfully be able to ingest themselves with heroin, cocaine, marijuana, meth, etc.
November 9th, 2007 at 7:11 am
The way I understood the bodily domain concept is "nobody else should have a right to force things into/upon your body"
November 9th, 2007 at 8:59 am
I've got a break in between classes right now and I thought I'd pop in to check this out real quick, I'll get to paul's arguements later when I have time but since I've got like 5 minutes…
Charles: Yea… You're exactly right. Adults should be able to ingest alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, meth, etc.
It's their body, why should you have more say in what they do with it than they do?
November 9th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Jason, Come on now - you are showing your age once again.
November 9th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Charles,
Adults put many bad substances lawfully into their bodies every day (Fast Food, Junk Food, Alcohol, etc)
These products harm humans every day…
Just a thought…
November 9th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Charles,
As Christians we believe not just our souls, but even our bodies belong to God. That is why it is so natural for us to sacrifice ourselves for others. And also aso easy for us to see that these children inside the womb are God's children and not ours. With no awareness or acknowledgement of God, that leaves Jason with no understanding of why anybody should sacrifice their own bodies for the good of anybody else. If it were not for our understanding of God we would all likely be living within a self-centered existense.
As God's children we must live in restraint and humility even when confronted with those who do not acknowledge God's dominion of all thing in heaven AND ON EARTH.
May God bless you abundantly for your posts Charles. I do enjoy them immensely.
Paul2
November 9th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Paul2,
Thanks for those kind words.
Many times I forget that without God people sometimes lack the moral compass by which to make sound judgments from. That without a solid foundation, of right and wrong, other decisions in their lives will be equally skewed.
I only hope that someday these people will find the truth.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
I read somewhere that "Children are the only thing that God gives us stewardship over in this life that you can take to heaven with you "…
So true…
November 9th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Tsk, tsk. That's awfully self righteouss of you both, how ironic for that you two are a member of a religion that looks down on people judging and condemning others.
“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37)
Listen, if you want to take shots at me saying I lack a moral compass, you need to look at one of the big things that define you, Christianity. You're a member of one of the most morally offensive religions out there. Eternal torture, genocide, rape, murder and more are all endorsed and ordered by your religion. Often for the most ridiculous of "offenses". Really, if you think a sadistic, crazy dungeon master is the ultimate source or morality, you're the one lacking a moral compass.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
John,
I do believe that individuals should have the right to control what they put in their body to the point where they do not infringe upon the rights of others. Get drunk, but if you kill someone cause you got drunk then you pay the penaly for your actions. But that is not what "bodily domain" is about.
When sex is consentual your bodily domain is not violated. You go into it understanding that it could result in the creation of a new life. People in Jason's mindset just want all the sex they can get without the reponsibility for the result of their actions. In a nutshell they think they have the right to submit their bodies to the actions that create a new life and then destroy that life. Then fabricate/twist the concept of bodily domain to try and justify murderously self-centered and irresponsible behaviour. The basis for all order in civilized society is adults having the capacity to make decisions and understand the possible repercussions of their actions. And NOT giving any individual the right to act out in ways that harm/destroy the life of another.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Jason,
I certainly hope your last comment was not intended for me.
If it was, please re-read my last post, as I chose my words very carefully. Note the bolded words in my last comment.
Many times I forget that without God people sometimes lack the moral compass by which to make sound judgments from. That without a solid foundation, of right and wrong, other decisions in their lives will be equally skewed.
You should also note that I did not include your name in this post; as it is more of a general statement.
Please show me where I have judged you in this blog/topic; as I don’t believe that I have.
Then please reread my last comment.
I only hope that someday these people will find the truth.
Jason - I’m praying for you.
November 9th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
Jason,
First of all you obviously know nothing about the Christian Faith. You're uncomfortable with the idea of Sin. But I will be the first to admit, I am a sinner and so is everyone else. Paul makes it very clear there is no sin greater then the other, but sin is sin. Sin causes death, not just here but sends us to eternal death. That is why Jesus came. He took on the sins of the world so that those who believe in Him will have peace here, but more importantly eternal life. God doesn't send anyone to Hell. We do that ourselves, by rejecting the gift of His Son. God will never make us choose Him. That's why we have free will. Yet with that freedom there are responsiblities and consequences. Everyday that I am here is one more day that I have the chance to grow closer to Him. He is patient, if He wans't we'd be gone by now. He is merciful for He turns none away that seek Him. His heart breaks when one of His children (He created each of us) turns from Him, yet when one comes home He is waiting with open arm, the Heavens rejoice, the angels and saints sing praises. So I don't see how you think Christians are so bad.
We are the ones who help the majority of those in need, we are actively involved in helping the homeless, widowed, the orphaned. We have home for orphaned children. We open our homes to girls who are pregnant to give them a place to live. We build homes for those who have lost theirs. We run tutoring programs to help kids exceed in school. May I remind you that it's Christian churchs that are sending people to rebuild New Orleans and the Gulf states. Who opens their doors first in an emergency - Christian churches. The majorty of agencies that do this are Christian. Do you work with the homeless, have you worked with troubled kids, do you tutor kids to help them. If you look at who gives the most money to organizations that help others? Christians. They give more money per capita then any other group reguardless of income levels. Why do we give like this because we are so grateful for what Jesus did for us that we have to show others.
Yes people have done bad things under the Christian banner, but so has every other religion in the world. And those who have lead His people astray are held accountable. Everyone will one day stand before God, and there will be an accounting for what we have done or have not done for each other. That goes for both Christians and non Christians.
What I also hear is that you do not like that there are billions of us who believe in ABOLUTE TRUTH. There are some things that are just wrong. Murder & Abortion is two of them. Killing another for convience, in anger, for revenge and the like is just wrong. Moral relativism is a pathway to disaster. It does lead to destruction.
November 9th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Tara,
Could you point out to me where Paul makes it very clear no sin is greater then the other?
November 9th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Jason,
As Christians we believe that our bodies and our souls belong to God. You do not. I was just pointing out to Charles that this difference may in fact be a contributing factor to why we have differing views with regard to the value of a baby. Believe it or not one of my closest friends in high school was an atheist. . Blogging is open discussion about other peoples posts and that is why I used your name as part of my discussion with Charles. Maybe I should have just used the word atheist in my discussion instead of referring to you by name. Though I disagree with your views, my intention was not to offend you.
Paul2
November 9th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Paul2,
Paul makes a list of sins in Romans 1:18-32, 2:9-11, Chapter 3. All sin is listed together and they are not broken into catagories. Paul does not seperate murder from adultry, from slander, from unnatural sex acts, from gossips, from arrogance. Sin is sin and it leads to death. Only redemption through Jesus Christ are we forgiven and freed.
November 9th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
"Eternal torture, genocide, rape, murder and more are all endorsed and ordered by your religion. Often for the most ridiculous of "offenses""
Ok, I understand that, as Tara says, many immoral things are and have been done under the banner of religion, but this statement is made in the present tense. I need more information about that of which you are thinking. All I can think to say right now is "WHAT!", but you must be referring to something specific. I believe that you may be citing Old Testament Law or possibly to the actions of some in the Old Testament. If you are, I believe you are misreading or misinterpreting the text, but I'd like to consider the question from your point of view. More info please.
Erin
November 9th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Tara,
I do see the list of sins but just cause they are listed together, to me, that does not mean all sin is equally bad, just that they are all badand and that they lead to death.
Read Luke 12: 9-10 and tell me what you think of that. To me Jesus seems to be saying that the repercussions of our actions will not be equal just because each is bad, and that some will have more severe repercussions then others.
November 9th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Paul2,
Good Morning. This is the day the Lord hath made, Let us be rejoice and be glad in it!
In the preceeding passages, Jesus is reassuring His followers not to be afraid of those who are going to call for their persecution and very lives. To rely on the Holy Spirit for what needed to be said.
Verses 8-9 makes us ask ourselves, why do people deny Jesus? When do we as His followers deny Jesus?
Verse 10 is attributing Satan with the work of the Holy Spirit. A person that commits this sin has shut themselves off from God. Because they have have done this, they can no longer see sin at all. But this is part of the cost of free will. You can also read Matt 10:32-33, 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-30; Luke 9:26, 15:10.
November 10th, 2007 at 11:29 am
Tara,
What version of the Bible are you reading. In mine verse 10 speaks to the fact that people who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the next. It also speaks to the fact that people who speak ill of the Son of Man will be forgiven. Jesus seems to be saying that although both are wrong, one is wronger and carries more grave consequences. That would mean not all sin is equal wouldn't it?
November 10th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Does the interpretation you are reading use the word forgiveness?
November 10th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Tra,
Let me clarify my last post. Does the interpretation of the Bible you read use the word forgive in Luke 12:10?
November 10th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Or better yet. Can you post the whole verse for me?
Thanks, and God bless you on this day also.
November 10th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Paul2,
I read quite a few commentaries last night, and the common thought is that those who choose to reject Jesus will not be allowed in heaven. This again goes to God allowing us free will. He has allowed us to decided whether to follow the call of the Holy Spirit or reject Him. And because of those decisions we are held accoutable. Through Christ we receive God's mercy, lovingkindness, and grace.
For example if one proclaims before coming to Christ that he/she do not beleive, and that God does not exsist, then he/she is lost. But when that person comes to know Christ and repents from that position, is he/she still outside of Christ? No, bc he/she has turned from the sin of arrogence and pridefulness. Jesus forgives, and opens His arms wide open to receive that person. So that is why I say that no one sin is greater then another.
There will be an accountability for both believers and non-believers. As believers God will ask us how we furthered His kingdom. Did we tell out neighbors about Jesus? Did we give help to the widowed, orphaned, outsiders, did we offer hospitality to the stranger? By not doing these things, we are denying Jesus. Who He is, and keeping Him to ourselves. We will be held accoutable, but through Jesus we are spared God's full judgement.
Non-believers will be asked the same type of questions, but they will not have Jesus, so they will receive God's full judgement. This is why even people who do good things will not make it. Because only through Christ is there salvation. There is no other way. Many paths to salvation is Satan's biggest lie. He knows that he has already lost bc Jesus died, rose, accended and will come again. Satan is trying to take as many with him as possible.
But again, God gave us free will to go down either path. As God says in Revelations, those who seek, will find, those who knock the door will be opened. Jesus will never force His way in. He patiently waits.
I don't know if this makes any sense, and I don't know whether it is a difference between Protestant and Catholic views. But if one sin was greater then another, there woud be no hope for any of us. What I do know is that each day God gives me is another day to repent and work for the betterment of God's kingdom until Christ returns.
November 11th, 2007 at 11:00 am
Tara,
This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it! Thank you for your explanation about how somebody can be blinded from repentance.
What translation of Scriptures do you use?
November 11th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Paul2,
The Peace of Christ be with you today.
I use the NASB or the NIV. I like both. Sorry for not getting back to you before this morning, 2 of my 3 kids are sick. So they needed Mommy:)
What are your thoughts on those verses? What version of Scripture do you use?
November 11th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Tara, no matter how you look at it, blaspeming the Holy Spirit is an eternity without repentance or forgiveness. I don't know any other sins that are spoken about in the Bible with such severe repercussions or in both the Old and New Testaments. I think you would be better off guilty of any other sin blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
November 11th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Tara, no matter how you look at it, blaspeming the Holy Spirit is an eternity without repentance or forgiveness. I don't know any other sins that are spoken about in the Bible with such severe repercussions or in both the Old and New Testaments. I think you would be better off guilty of sin other than blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
November 11th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Paul2,
I would agree with you on that. I wouldn't want to have to defend that position to God. The thought just overwhelms me.
November 11th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
At any given point during the day, we are allowed to punch up websites, turn on television programs, or read literature that has been authored by Satan. Why not take the time you would otherwise spend looking over EmilyX's site and use it to pray the Rosary for instance? Or attend a daily mass which is offered several times during the day within a reasonable radius of almost anyone's home. Adoration Chapels for prayer are in several towns as well. If you're not Catholic, incorporate your own faith's regimen for battling the evil one. If you hate abortion and stand for life, don't let the devil suck you in via dark websites. He's tricky as hell. Pray, pray, pray, for the end of abortion … every minute of every day!
November 12th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Hello Jason,
I just wanted to once again comment on your post #60.
No one was going to kill you because they had a problem with gas station clerks. There are no websites or organizations or protesters seeking to intimidate clerks into no longer selling funions and faygo. No one is going to break into your home to kill you because you gave they don't like the color of your work uniform.
Have a look at this news story – fresh from the headlines.
November 14th, 2007 at 9:59 am
As for those trees. They are called arbor vitae, which translates into tree of life. If only PP knew this before spending $30,00. they symbolize hope for me and my spouse as we pray daily at the site.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:39 pm