Wednesday open discussion thread
Posted by Eric Scheidler, October 24th, 2007
The little crosses in this photo were dug up out of the dirt around Planned Parenthood and tossed in the gutter by a couple of employees one day during the 40-day vigil. I retrieved them and brought them to the Vigil area, where I snapped this photo.
Folks seemed to appreciate the open discussion thread last Wednesday, so I thought I'd make it a regular Wednesday feature. This thread is for discussion on any aspect of the life issues, but to get the ball rolling and make it interesting I thought I'd throw out a starter question:
What makes a human person a human person?
That just goes to show how planned parenthood obviously feels about babies. Throw them in the gutter like they're trash. So sad.
October 24th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
As someone who lives in the neighborhood, the crosses and other pieces of propaganda left behind by pro-lifers appear as nothing more than litter. And to Elizabeth, maybe you don't care about children if you equate them with a piece of wood.
October 25th, 2007 at 7:16 am
"As someone who lives in the neighborhood, the crosses and other pieces of propaganda left behind by pro-lifers appear as nothing more than litter. And to Elizabeth, maybe you don't care about children if you equate them with a piece of wood."
The cross is litter? I guess you care little about our Lord, who suffered for us… and I guess you also don't understand that Elizabeth was saying that it makes sense that people who treat the cross with so much disrespect have also little concern for human life in general.
October 25th, 2007 at 7:32 am
Thank you MB..that was definitely what I meant. Aww, Tony, really you think I equate children with a piece of wood? Yes that's why I am a single mom going to school and taking care of a 2 year old..cause I equate children with wood. No, maybe I just think it's sad that there is so little respect for life and so little accountability for people's decisions in our society. But if you find it necessary to twist my words and take them out of context to suit your own purposes that is fine. I'm quite used to that from choicer's.
October 25th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Is it a surprize that Planned Parenthood shows such disrespect to the cross? I am not Muslim nor Buddhist but I wouldn't disprect any of their religious symbols. The person who tossed them into the gutter must be a pretty angry person to have been offended enough by a symbol of our faith to have removed them.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Irie, mon. I cannot be conceivin' no chile, do I made one out of a piece o' wood. I call 'im Billy da Kid.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:52 am
Going back to the first city council meeting about PP, one thing that both supporters of PP mentioned in their comments was their disgust with the crosses on the lawn. I recall thinking at the time how sad that was. Now that others from PP have exhibited similar animus against the holiest symbol of our Christian faith it becomes all the more clear where the battle lines are being drawn.
October 25th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
What makes a human person a human person? per Eric
Human Life Begins at the moment a woman's egg is fertilized by a man's sperm, and every human being is entitled to have his or her life protected by law from that moment forward…..AND there are NO exceptions despite what some may say, even when they "claim" a pro-life status.
Jane
October 25th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Pray profoundly for all those who are in the darkness of the evil one. Pray that they may encounter the truth, that they are loved by their creator and He wants them to see that love. And that love is shown to them by those who love our Lord.
October 25th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Here is a question for everyone…
According to Jane C,
"Human Life Begins at the moment a woman's egg is fertilized by a man's sperm, and every human being is entitled to have his or her life protected by law from that moment forward"
So does the mother have POA (power of attorney) over her baby/fetus?
And if so would she or would she not have the legal authority to decide this baby/fetus's future?
Just a thought.
October 25th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
"What makes a human person a human person, per Eric. Very good question Eric and I have never before ever answered or written on a blog, so bear with me. I know God makes us human, but than to become a human person we need the tender love from our parents, caregivers, school systems, churches, teachers, pastors, God through prayers, bible, etc. This is a continous and constant nurture from our heros, our envirnment, etc. That young branch needs to become strong and it needs to be pruned. We are or hope to be that Godly example for our loved ones and those strangers around us, so they could see God in and through us. It is so important and I stress important to stand up for what we believe in to make our community a better place to live. Our future is in the hands of our youth. And we are their stepping stones. Let us set the bar for them and most importantly Let us love one another as God loves us. Thank you for listening.
October 25th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
This may be a little off topic - but I'll post it here anyway.
I am not sure if there is any correlation / causality relationship between PP and other illegal activity, but I will leave it to the reader to draw their conclusions.
Have a read of this recent article.
Then check the location of Mr. Green's address – and the location of PP.
October 25th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
In Response to Eric’s question -
For me - its simple. A Human has exactly 46 chromosomes, 23 from the mother and the 23 from the father - united in 23 pairs. The uniting of these pairs (conception) defines a Human and simultaneously defines a Human-LIFE.
October 25th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
To John,
The mother has not the right to kill her growing child, in her womb or out of her womb. If she does, that is murder. There are bad man made laws (case in point, abortion) and there are good man made laws. God's laws are ALL good and exist for our own good. God doesn't make mistakes.
October 25th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
John–
My mother has power of attorney over my grandmother, and is thus responsible for her. How exactly could this mirror an abortive relationship between a mother and her pre-born child? I just don't think it was a good illustration.
Erin
October 25th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Erin and Karen,
My question was simple…
"does the mother have POA (power of attorney) over her baby/fetus?"
That was all I asked.
I was not attempting to paint an illustration or insuate that the mother has the right to kill her child. Nor did I make any commentary on our current laws w/in the US and their correct/incorrectness.
I was curious if anyone knows who would have POA for a baby/fetus?
October 25th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
John–
So sorry that I jumped to conclusions on where you were going with this. I did a little searching, and from all I can see, no one seems to know. Either the fetus is part of the mother's body and is treated as such, or the fetus is a child and would be under parents jurisdiction, in the same way any minor child is. Of course, in that case, the father has rights too, and at this point in our legal system, the father does not have over a fetus. It's very confusing. Is there a lawyer in the house?
Erin
October 25th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
Erin,
Thanks for the reply and the effort…and no worries or apologies neccessary.
To add to your post…
I second your calling…"is there a lawyer in the house?"
I wonder if lawmakers' minds consider POA when dealing w/ making abortions legal or illegal?
If you think about it a baby/fetus in the womb is on a type of life support…
Although we don't exactly "pull the plug" on perfectly healthy people either now do we…
Just a thought.
October 25th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
DNA! This is what makes a human person a human person..all living things have life, but only humans have DNA that are human!
October 25th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Charles, Your #12 blog was very interesting to me. I might be crazy but I seem to remember a shooting going on in that area over the summer. It had to do with gang members in a car. No one was hurt. These apartments seem like bad news. I wonder what else goes on over there? Just another reason to be there praying. I'm so glad PP has it's cameras, to keep an eye on things. Or, do you think evil just draws evil?
October 25th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Laura; My toe nail clippings have human DNA too, they're not human though.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
Jason,
did you really think through your response to Laura?
Why do your clippings have DNA? - Because they were part of your body. Yes, you could clip them off and the rest of your body stayed intact. However, you could say the same thing about an amputated limb. It too would have your DNA - because it had been a part of you - yet you would still be able to go on without it.
Kirk
October 26th, 2007 at 8:29 am
Erin,
No apologies neccessary…and thanks for the effort (as always).
"Is there a lawyer in the house?"
I second that…
my original question I would guess could be in the back of the minds of our politicians and lawmaykers who influence laws on abortion.
"does the mother have POA (power of attorney) over her baby/fetus?"
I wonder if this could be a reasoning behind giving the woman a choice to "pull the plug" on her baby/fetus. Although we would never, and are not allowed to, "pull the plug" on someone who is healthy…
Just a thought.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Kathy,
I saw this article in today's Beacon Getting robbed instead of sex, man tells Aurora police. The address listed is "the 300 block of North Oakhurst Drive".
Here's a map of the address at Google Maps. It's no wonder the Prayer Vigil had trouble over there from time-to-time.
I know that not all people who live over there are like this, I'm not saying that. It's just "interesting".
God Bless,
Roger
October 26th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Dear Readers-
Here's an Eye Opener for those of you who missed Patricia Bainbridge's Conference last week- The "Super Hero for Choice" Video that planned parenthood put out! It's nasty! Talk about VIOLENT!!
Log On! http://www.ifilm.com/video/2681838
Jane
October 26th, 2007 at 10:49 am
John,
Here is what a friend of mine who is a lawyer had to said about power of attorney.
No, she does not have a power of attorney. A power of attorney allows a competent adult to legally authorize someone else to act on his or her behalf.
A mother is certainly the natural guardian of her unborn child which would require her to make certain decisions as a fiduciary in the child's best interest.
However, ever since Roe, the precedent is set that a woman has the right to control her "own body" regardless of if there is an unborn child within it. As the child nears birth, the state's interest increases in protecting its future citizen; thus, the state's interest in outlawing late term abortion has less to do with its gruesomeness in law, than in the viability of the child.
Hope this helps.
Tara
That is where legal precedent stands.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:50 am
Tara,
Yes that did help…I appreciate the response and the research…
You had said…
"As the child nears birth, the state's interest increases in protecting its future citizen; thus, the state's interest in outlawing late term abortion has less to do with its gruesomeness in law, than in the viability of the child."
This is an interesting scenario that I believe the Pro-Life movement could possibly use in its favor (or maybe they already do).
What are the reasonings behind the laws of late-term abortions when compared to early abortions.
If I'm correct the laws for late-term abortion vary from state to state correct?
So it would be interesting to see if a certain state doesn't allow late-term abortions but allows all other abortions to occur what their reasonings are behind this….It would seem to me that this is a contradiction in policy here…
Why is it not all or nothing? In regards to when an abortion during pregnancy occurs…
October 26th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Question for Saturday's Rally:
Does it have to be NEW baby items? or is 'slightly used' still ok?
October 26th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Jason, comment #21,
You don't have human toenails?…then oh my….what are they?
October 26th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
I think he's trying to equate his toe-nails to a human fetus.
October 26th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Jane, Thanks for the #25 link to that Planned Parenthood cartoon. I just don't have the words, other than to say it looks like kiddy brain washing, right out of Hitlers playbook.
October 26th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Kirk; a severed arm isn't a sentient being despite the fact it contains human DNA.
@29: Oh, I have human toe nails, but my toe nails aren't human.
October 26th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Alex,
Gently used items are welcome, not including used car seats and recalled baby cribs.
Thanks,
Roger
October 26th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
I,too, have been wondering what was needed for the Baby Shower at this rally, so I took the liberty of copying the following list from CareNet of DuPage's website. Unfortunately, CPC of Aurora was closed this afternoon when I called, but hopefully these guidelines will work for any organization that will be receiving the donations. If someone has an "official" list for this event, I would love to see it. For now, I'm working with this info:
"New and gently used baby clothes, up to size 2T
Unopened packages of diapers (NB - size 6)
Baby wipes
Baby wash, shampoo, oil and powder
Diaper cream
Baby blankets and bedding
Baby bibs, hats, socks, gloves, shoes, scarves, coats
Cribs in good condition, with all parts
Crib mattresses in good condition
High chairs, Swings, Bouncers, clean & good condition, with all parts
Infant car seats, no more than 6 yrs. old
Learning Toys
To respect the dignity or our clients
We cannot accept:
Stained, damaged, faded or torn clothing
Clothing larger than size 2T
Damaged cribs or any equipment missing parts
Toddler car seats
Car seats older than 6 yrs.
Stuffed Animals
Non-learning toys
Used Breast Pumps"
Again, if someone has an official list of items requested for THIS event, please post it–especially if it differs from the information I have provided. Thanks!
Erin
October 26th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Jason–
You are not thinking this through. Your toenails and arm have YOUR DNA. A baby does not have his/her MOTHER's DNA. In fact, you proving the pro-life position. You can cut off and through away your toenails with impunity, because they are YOUR'S, they match YOUR DNA. A baby has his/her own DNA from the moment of conception. Thus, s/he cannot be discarded by the birthmom as part of her body, because in fact they do not share DNA. The baby is a separate person.
Erin
October 26th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
I would like to second alex's question about whether the items have to be "NEW"? I have some very well kept clothes and such of my daughters when she was an infant so I would like to give those..and what size clothes do they need?
October 26th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Erin; You're arguing ownership, not life. Your DNA is far, far from being uniform throughout your body. The arguement seems to be that a human being is human by virtue of having DNA, obviously that isn't the case. Also, Mutations may be unique within a some of my toenails. Cancer has unique DNA, am I allowed to cut it out? After all, it has its own unique DNA…
October 26th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
I checked CareNet of DuPage's website, and it said gently used were ok, sizes 2T and under. Also accepted are learning toys, furniture/accessories less than 6 yrs old with ALL parts, unopened diapers sizes 1-6, sealed wipes, and sealed formula (brand names preferable to avoid allergies). I would have liked to call the Crisis Pregnancy Center in Aurora, but unfortunately they were closed this afternoon. Hopefully their guidelines are similar.
Jason– you can be identified at a crime scene from hair and skin DNA. That is the definition I am using. Even with some mutations, it is unique enough to be identified as yours. If you want to argue that a fetus is a mutation of his/her mother's DNA in the same way that cancer is, I would love to hear that one.
BTW, when do YOU think life begins?
Erin
October 26th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Baby shower items:
Here's the clarification on the needs - car seats need to be new only because there is no way to tell if they've ever been in an accident. Cribs can be used so long as they meet all current saftely standards and are not recalled.
All sizes of clothing are needed from newborn to 2T. Gently used is OK. Winter coats, hats, and gloves too - newborn to 2T.
Any other large items such as highchairs, stroller, etc can be gently used.
Then of course there is always the need for diapers of all sizes plus baby care items such as lotions, wipes, shampoo, etc.
Feel free to post additional questions if need be and i'll check the blog later tonight.
God bless,
Dawn
October 26th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
John,
Sorry for not responding sooner, I am throwing a fundraiser for my pastor who is adopting a 2 1/2 yr old from China, on Sunday, so life is a little hectic.
I'm glad that my answer helped.
I agree, if protecting the unborn child is important to the state at viability (20 weeks), then they should have a vested interest earlier on in the pregnancy. Which was the case before Roe. States have since been trying to regain ground, but Planned Parenthood, NARAL, NOW and the ACLU are ready to take the state to court to stop any law that would restrict it. It is amazing how often they are in court. For example: they are against parental notification or consent. They want a wedge to be placed between a minor and her parents (this is not being pro-family). Doctors and dentists can't treat my daughters w/o my consent, but she can go have an abortion w/o my knowledge. This is a major decision that has life long consequences and they don't want me to be part of it. That's just wrong.
There are laws that allow for murder charges if an unborn child is killed in an act of violence against his/her mother. I find it ironic that unborn children have "person" status in this case bc the woman decided to chose life, and at the same time a unborn child is only a "potential life", if the woman chooses to abort. It is contradictory.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
that which makes a human being is it's SOUL
October 26th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Jason, I just started reading this thread and I find that your arguments are…how do I say it…confusing. How did you boil human life down to DNA? Why are you arguing that your toenails have DNA? What in the world does this have to do with a child? Your arguments sir are very far from coherent… in fact, you don't seem to have a point at all. Pleas clarify for us who are quite baffled by your approach. Thanks.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Yes, a soul is of prime consideration in what makes a human person a human person. But a human person is not as the angels, who are pure spirit. Human persons are both body and soul, linked together,created in the image and likeness of God. It is the body that gives human persons an ability that even the angels lack: to be co-creators with God in the generation of new human life. And at the end of the world, the souls of all who have died will be reunited with their glorified bodies in the final Resurrection of the Dead.
So when does a human person become a human person? The only answer can be at conception, when God creates from nothing a soul that He breathes into the flesh of a newly conceived, unique child that was created from the union of the mother and father.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:56 pm
Tara says,
"There are laws that allow for murder charges if an unborn child is killed in an act of violence against his/her mother. I find it ironic that unborn children have "person" status in this case bc the woman decided to chose life, and at the same time a unborn child is only a "potential life", if the woman chooses to abort. It is contradictory."
That's a HUGE contradiction…
How about this one…suicide. Suicide, if I'm not misstaken, is a crime.
So what happens if a woman tries to kill herself while she is pregnant…lives…but then has a misscarriage?
Does this fall under abortion…or…? I'm not sure.
And Tara…no worries about delayed responses…its always better to be busy then bored.
October 27th, 2007 at 10:48 am
Jason says: a severed arm isn't a sentient being despite the fact it contains human DNA.
Jason, are you suggesting that your arm isn't a part of you - presumably a sentient human being?
Also, I notice that you typically respond to posts that are posted somewhat imprecisely (non of us our professional apologists - yourself included). Yet when other consistently bring up points that you are unable to refute - that are addressed specifically to you - you ignore them. You just move onto a different post that was not worded as well as it might have been, and attempt to show flaws in it. Do you think that by demonstrating that someone used a wrong word you are refuting the much more important and greater concepts that are inspiring them to take the time to correspond with you?
What do you feel that you are gaining by posting and picking and choosing your responses? It seems sort of pointless.
October 27th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Tara and others,
Here is a perfect example of what Tara in Post #39 was talking about…
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/drunken.driving.sentence.2.413885.html
Copy and paste this link…(as I'm retarded and can't figure out how to use the "link tags") The article is about a man who just got senteced for a drunk driving accident w/ a woman who was pregnant.
October 27th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
I want to get a credit card to restore my credit,
but my credit rating is bad.
Where can I find Unsecured Credit Cards Bad Credit?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:16 am