Wednesday open discussion thread
Posted by Eric Scheidler, October 17th, 2007
I saw these crosses here this morning at St. Peter's Church in Geneva when driving up to attend Patricia Bainbridge's talk on Planned Parenthood. I thought the shot would be a good graphic to accompany this open thread.
I wanted to provide an opportunity for open, free-wheeling discussion on the life issues in the wake of my having closed down comments on the "vacant lot fence" article. There were over 400 comments—but that many starts to clog the server, and the polemic was getting a little out of hand.
The comments section is now open for discussion. Enjoy!
Eric,
Thank you for allowing free discussion on such a sensitive topic. I do appreciate being able to ask questions and give opinions allowing for my "psychological air".
October 17th, 2007 at 9:30 am
Here's a question that I never got answered from the last forum…
During my own digging I was having a heck of a time finding out when the baby's/fetus's nervous system is fully formed and functional. I have found plenty on when development of the nervous system begins…however not when it is actually fully functioning.
Does anyone have an answer or a link they can refer me to?
October 17th, 2007 at 9:53 am
Eric, Last night David and I went to Saints Peter and Paul Church in Naperville and saw the movie Bella. It was absolutely wonderful. A very thought provoking and well done movie. I am sure you know about it. I am now getting involved in helping to promote the movie in our mainstream, and select theaters. Here are a list of websites to help promote Bella:
General Site: http://www.BellaTheMovie.com
Resource Site: http://www.BellaResources.com
News Site: http://www.BellaNews.com
Emails: http://www.BellaEmails.com
If you would like to collaborate on this give us a call. I gave you our phone number on the card that came with the cake. We are happy you and your family enjoyed it. God be with you and your family.
Karen and David Koller
October 17th, 2007 at 10:01 am
There needs to be a coalition of PTA contacts to the schools in Aurora, Naperville, Batavia, Geneva and other nearby cities most effected by PP. They could help keep an eye on activity that may be insipidly infiltrated from PP to the children by way of media, classes, and field trips. And also act as a support and alert system for the other parents of that school. A neighbor told me that the public schools locally have field trips in grade (5?) where they are instructed to the homosexual agenda. She pulled her kids out of that school.
October 17th, 2007 at 11:25 am
"A neighbor told me that the public schools locally have field trips in grade (5?) where they are instructed to the homosexual agenda. She pulled her kids out of that school."
Perhaps if parents spoke to thier children (before such school influence) regarding such sensitive topics than it would not matter what the school systems teach…
Do not blame our school systems and the wide demographic range they attempt to teach on sensitive issues. The lack of preemptive communication between parents and children are what it to blame here.
October 17th, 2007 at 11:41 am
Another thing to think about is whether PP will utilize the local Girl Scout council. I am involved with the Boy Scouts (a wholly separate organization) which has remained morally conservative, but the Girl Scouts have conceded certain values. When my daughter was last in Girl Scouts I contacted the Fox Valley Council after hearing the national council had been worked with PP. I was assured at that time that the council had no relationship with PP. If anyone has a daughter currently in GS, it might be a good time to get in contact with the council. GS units have a lot of autonomy, which allows units a lot of freedom. So even if the national council encourages relationships with PP, a local unit could still choose to be more faith-based.
October 17th, 2007 at 11:57 am
Wide demographics have nothing to do with the agenda the schools present of promiscuity, and immorality–it is obvious and blatant. Parents can try all they can do and yet the school will present this if they have not already. Attend the conference Eric speaks of above. There is another planned for this evening. There is no reason to introduce homosexuality and promiscuity into the schools and THAT is what is in store for the students in this area by PP themselves. That is partly how they drum up their business.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
For John, Comment #4:
Re: Fully functioning nervous system
Go to: http://www.lifedynamics.com
The answer may be there.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Mary says,
"There is no reason to introduce homosexuality and promiscuity into the schools"
I'm with you on this Mary…
However these topics do need to be taught, explained and discussed between a parent and their child. The reason I believe schools are attempting to teach these topics in the classroom now are do to the parents who never talked to thier child about these hard to deal w/ topics.
One of the biggest downfalls in parenting is a lack of communication with thier child.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
There is a strong push everywhere for education regarding sexuality. Unfortunately, it is the wrong kind. Where many of us work, a Biblical view of homosexuality is considered bigotry, and schools often take the position that this needs to be countered with education, just as racial bigotry has been countered in the past. It is a difficult time, as many groups that work for social justice kind of lump things like women's reproductive rights and gay rights in with other human rights. As Christians we should be leading these agendas, not those who are morally lost. Although, some groups have been begun by movements led by pastors, like Dr. ML King, and are now pro-abortion, pro-gay, etc. So, when we oppose these things in our schools, we can seem like we are "right-wing" or off the wall.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Karen-
I wish I had known they were doing that at SSPP since I go there, but I just saw the trailer for that movie and it looked amazing. If you known anywhere else they are showing that could you please let me know! Thanks
Elizabeth
October 17th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
John, you can also look at babycenter.com. It gives a week by week of development during pregnancy. My wife and I looked forward to getting the e-mail each week during our pregnancy.
http://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy-week-by-week-2-13
October 17th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
to #6;
Instructed to the homosexual agenda? Seriously?
Maybe they were taught that two people of the same sex can love one another? I doubt they were told "You should give it a shot."
There's a lot of bigotry in our society towards homosexuals, especially in children. Letting them know it's fine and that they shouldn't make fun of their peers for having gay parents is a pretty admirable thing.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Shawn; The biblical view of homosexuality IS bigoted. Discriminatory views and intolerance don't get a moral pass just because they're held under the guise of religion.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Brian and NM,
I appreciate your help, unfortunately neither of these sites address my very specific question.
When is the baby's/fetus's nervous system fully formed and functional?
They both address when the nervous system begins to develop…I have found this info on multiple sites. I greatly appreciate the effort.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Jason–
As a Christian, I believe that God designed sex to be between one man and one woman in marriage. I don't believe in premarital sex or in adultery or in masturbation. It's not how God designed sex to be. While you probably have other words for that belief, I doubt "bigoted" is one of the them. I don't believe in homosexuality. It's not how God designed sex to be. Why is holding that view bigoted?
Erin
October 17th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
The nervous system continues to develop after birth. Babies have no hand/eye coordination because the "wiring" isn't there yet.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Parents SHOULD know the dangers of PP in the schools…Other states had to pass laws forbidding them from being in public schools because they are an abortion service. RE: the homosexual thing, dig deep into PP's "teen" website: teenwire.com
(say a prayer, though, before you go on there!) It's disgusting! I wouldn't want my teen reading any of that garbage! THIS is what they will teach the kids in the public schools. I agree with Mary (#6)…get the PTA involved now…it only takes a phone call from the Health Dept. in the schools to get PP's agenda in!
October 17th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Eric,
I understand that you have views on sexuality that are traditional and in line with the Catholic faith. I respect your views, but bringing the views into discussions about abortion only divides those who disagree with your views on this matter but agree with you about abortion. Abortion, in my view, is a unique evil. Why allow those who want abortion in Aurora to attack those who object to it by bringing in side issues?
Brian
October 17th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Sorry, Eric, it was Erin who wrote that, not you.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
For John, Comment #17:
http://www.all.org (American Life League)
http://www.priestsforlife.org
http://www.or.org (Operation Rescue)
http://www.markcrutcherblog.com
This is key: Utilize the LINKS at these four sites and the first site recommended.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Brian,
I think people were just adding that perspective because it's part of PP's agenda, among abortion. Really, check out teenwire.com & see for yourself…PP is a multi-faceted evil organization!
October 17th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
I understand, and it is an open thread. I'm just concerned that fighting other battles simply serves to weaken the central fight.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Brian–
I'm sorry that you feel I brought the discussion off topic. I was responding to a specific comment made in post #16, but I can see where you feel it may be inappropriate to continue the discussion in this venue. Jason, please feel free to follow the link to my website and from there to my email, and I would be happy to continue this discussion. Brian is right, let's stay on topic here.
Erin
PS (Brian, I'm not Catholic. Let's not make assumptions
October 17th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Just an FYI for everyone out there…
http://prolifeinternet.com/
A google powered search engine that donates to the pro-life cause. I made it my homepage! ;o)
October 17th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Off topic, but this just in…, Well I suppose it's truthfully, "Go Duquesne University!"
-HR
October 17th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Oops, the last post should read:
this was supposed to read "'Go NPR!' Well I suppose it's truthfully, 'Go Duquesne University!'" But I screwed up the link
Sorry!
-HR
October 17th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
I iz in ur womb, kickin ur belliez! I duz not want to get abortezed!
October 17th, 2007 at 7:20 pm
All you people worried that the thread is getting off topic. Don't worry. The topic here is open thread.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
Jason,
Obviously men and women were designed to be able to have children through sex. Men and men, or women and women were not designed to have children when they have sex. So having the opinion that homosexually is not the way God intended it to be is not bigotted, it is rational.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Well, it's not a completely open thread but sexual orientation and procreation are related since homosexual activity can not generate new life.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Brian,
This life fight is over if we cannot stand for fammily values as God intended it to be.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
John,
Brian has a point when he says that the nervous system continue to develope even beyond birth, so I don't think a fully deserved nervous system is your answer to when life begins. Keep searching though and I'm bettin theres an 85% chance you wil find the answer.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Excuse my fat fingers John. I meant fully developed nervous system, not fully deserved.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
This topic is relevent and related as PP offers such sexual education covering this topic and more ofeensive ones once they are allowed in the school system. The point is we must find away to know when, not if, this occurs. PP is for NO parental notificaiton so there will be no open forum to alert parents. In fact, the school board may even be endorsing them as the Chicago Public Schools did—they gave PP $400,000 for sex education in one year (quoted from P Bainbridge.)
October 17th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
John,
At what point does a baby deserve the rest of his nervous system?
October 17th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
I'm a bit confused…
Paul2, John, and myself (from the other post) seem to be asking when does life begin. I read this in your exchanges but I don't think you (John) are asking the right question. John stated ""What constitutes being alive…a heart beat, brain functionality…having a soul or spirit?"
Steve - this was my original question…not what is life.
However if I'm to understand your definition of life it would be cell reproduction? When the cells of the zygote begins to devide…this is the beginning of life?"
John, if you want to know what it means to be alive then you are essentially asking what life means. Life is the state of being alive. If you don't want a definition of life in order to understand what it means to be alive, then I think you are looking for a different question. What you really seem to be asking is what does it mean to be man, human. Your inquiry into the human nervous system shows that you are not looking at when life begins, but when life has developed into something we can relate to. could you please, for me, clarify your question. Do you want to know when life begins, as a unique individual? Or do you want to know when the zygote develops enough to become rational and feeling? Or something entirely different? Little help please.
P.S. To your statement about division of cells…Life must begin prior to the zygote's first division of cells. There has to be motion prior to the division or else the division wouldn't happen. Human life begins at conception. Sperm life and egg life are present prior to conception, but these on their own do not constitute human life.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Paul2;
No.
First, humans weren't designed by god and there is no god, at least not that I'm aware of. Since god is the crux of your arguement, I'm sure you have evidence that such an entity exist, and not only that such entity exist, but that said entity is indeed the judeochristian god.
I'm well aware two men can't become pregnant, however, inability to get pregnant or the inability to impregnante your partner does not translate to immoral behavior. If that's the case, all infertile couples having sex are commiting a great sin, correct?
Even so, your arguement, and correct me if I'm misinterpreting, is that it's rational to discriminate against people because the way they express their sexuality doesn't produce children. That makes no sense whatsoever and is most definitely irrational. Hell, this irrational belief is based on another irrational belief, IE God. The only way you can justify such a belief is via a biggoted paradigm such as religion.
Once again, just because your beliefs are backed by some religion, doesn't mean they aren't bigoted or racist.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:13 am
And PP and other programs are not pushing "the homosexual agenda" or trying to indoctrinate your children.
The goals of those seminars comes down to "Some people of the same sex love each other. Some of these people are your classmates and some are the parents of your classmates. There is no reason to make fun of them or beat them up or be mean to them because of it."
I really can't fathom what's so unconscionable about that.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:19 am
After this I'm done for the night;
Eric; Is there any chance you could put up a Vb style board for debate? Within a single thread arguments become too tangential and disorderly.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:45 am
Jason, what do you want from us??? It seems as though nothing will satisfy you. Tweak it this way, tweak it that way, tweak, tweak, tweak… get on with it already…say what you will. Make your point. If your point is that Homosexual fathers are just as good as Heterosexual fathers, tell us…but don't be surprised if you find yourself at a loss to defend that life style. Even if you don't believe in GOD, you must admit that Mother
October 18th, 2007 at 1:22 am
Error… Continuing the last note… (Mother) Nature has written the law and none can dispute it… Meaning, HOMO = No Life. Hetero = Life. It's really is just that simple.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:27 am
That's how you debate, you need to refine the topic in such a way we're not debating 10 issues at once, or all issues tangential to another. Have you ever been on a debate team? This is how civil discussion and debate work. You present your argument, your opponent presents his, you present a rebuttal, and so on and so forth refining and breaking down the arguement piece by piece to show why something is or isn't or should be or shouldn't be.
Everyone knows homosexuals can't produce children, what the hell are you trying to argue with that point? Also, are you illiterate? I've stated plenty of times that my point is that homosexuality isn't immoral and there's no reason to discriminate against it. That's my point.
Discrimination=Bad. There.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:41 am
ok, so your point is that homosexuality isn't immoral… well, I just disagree. if I can't get you with the whole nature works to destroy homosexuals then I guess I lose. I don't want to argue this point. I know it happens, I am well aware of the stance that most, if not all, Democrats take on this subject. I for one will never think that the homosexual life style is good for our nation. If you can't see that it is a perversion of nature then we have nothing to talk about. I know men seek men, I know women seek women. What I don't have to do is think that this is the norm for our whole society. Nor do I have to accept it.
One thing though…why do you think I am illiterate? If anything I am too literate. Sometimes that will make you crazier than the other…
October 18th, 2007 at 2:19 am
by "accept it" I mean, let it never be taught as a viable life style in our schools…, but alas, we digress…let's get the kids born before we criticize. Yes, we will criticize anything we disagree with, as will you. Bed time is well overdue.
October 18th, 2007 at 2:33 am
Jason says: And PP and other programs are not pushing "the homosexual agenda" or trying to indoctrinate your children.
From PP's Teenwire.com: "Coming Out to Your Parents
by Christy Brownlee, 07.20.04
Updated October 2007
Help and Hope for LGBT Teens
How can I tell my mom that I'm bisexual?
If you're lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or questioning (LGBTQ), you may struggle with the decision of whether to come out to your parents. Telling your parents can definitely have its rewards…"
October 18th, 2007 at 7:15 am
I think, at some point, all of you visited Planned Parenthood. How else could all your intellects have been aborted?
October 18th, 2007 at 7:19 am
Ah, but Cameron, you are so obviously wise.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:33 am
October is Breast Cancer Awareness month…that's why we see all those Pink Ribbons everywhere…
There's a new study that just recently came out that states "ABORTION is the BEST PREDICTOR of Breast Cancer"
Here's the summary:
The study was done by a British researcher and found that "An induced abortion leaves breast cells in a state of interrupted hormonal development in which they are more susceptible to cancer "
"It's time for scientists to admit publicly what they already acknowledge privately among themselves - that abortion raises breast cancer risk - and to stop conducting FLAWED research to protect the medical establishment from massive medical practice lawsuits "
Hmmmm…. I wonder why there was NO mention of this in the MSM ???
October 18th, 2007 at 8:23 am
In Response to Post #39…
First off the two questions that I had asked,
"What constitutes being alive, a heart beat, neural function…ect?"
"When is the human nervous system fully formed and funtional?"
Are two entirely seperate questions. Though they may appear to be interrelated they were not inteded to be. So everyone understands I do not attempt to ask question w/ an underlying intent to persuade someones opinion. I ask questions to gain others perspectives and then share my own…that being said.
The reason for my first question (being alive) is that it is pretty straight forward when we decide that a human has died, correct? If there heart stops beating we attempt to resuscitate them and we cannot then they have passed. However it is not quite as simple as a heart beat and and neurological function for when life begins is it?
The second question (nervous system completion) when in response to another persons comments (I believe Tara) on that the fetus/baby feels pain during the abortion. I did not agree/nor dissagree w/ this comment however having some medical educational background I am aware that the only way we can sense pain is w/ a proper functioning nervous sytem. As I've stated earlier I have been able to find plenty on when the nervous system begins but not when it is fully functional.
Thank you for your responses…
October 18th, 2007 at 8:55 am
John #52,
You seem to be a bit undecided in your first question still. Let me give you two questions and you pick which is closer to what you are asking…When does life begin for us humans? When does life end for us humans?
I know I already answered when life begins for us humans…at conception…but I see that your question of what constitutes being alive could relate to adults with massive brain injuries too. Which is it? What is your real question concerning life?
As for your second question, I don't know. If you find out let us all know.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:40 am
When I studied neuro-anatomy in college, the neurological system is not "cemented" until well into adolescence. During the first three years out of the womb there is an amazing amount of neurological growth and development. Birth is not a good end term for neurological development, as the process continues well past the time life continues outside the womb. Once begun, early in fetal development, the process doesn't become complete for many years.
As far as death, that is a legal term that changes from state to state. You could take a head injured patient across the country, and depending if the state's use brain activity or heart beat cessation as a definition of death, the patient could literally be considered dead in one state, alive in another. This is why pro-life advocates also are concerned with end of life issues.
When life is defined by usefulness or productivity, a very slippery slope is created where many humans will not be considered alive because they are not useful.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:57 am
As far as I am concerned, all these arguements about when life begins, is just arguement and debate, for the sake of arguing. What about Natural Law and commom sense. A sperm on it's own is nothing but a sperm, an egg on it's own, is nothing but an egg. When the two meet, zap! Something happens, and what is it. They, join, a tremdous action occurs, this is not by accident, it has become a living action, LIFE. It is not at that point a fully developed baby, but it has all the DNA and power to become a one of a kind, special, individual. By the 8th week, an ultrasound will show a heart beat, not a glob of cells beat, at least by 12 weeks, it has all the parts an pieces everything a human individual needs, at this time all it will need, is a safe, seccur, nurturing environment to grow, grow, grow. Whatever medical science wants to call this preborn baby, is a mute point, it is a preborn baby. Whatever pp wants to call it at each stage of growth (and they have given this preborn baby many different terms other than preborn baby, is also a mute point. All these other terms are used to make people feel like it's ok to get rid of, blob of cells, zygote, embryo, fetus, whatever name they want to call the preborn baby, in order,to not allow an individual think that this preborn baby is human , in order to ease one's conscience and allow this person to accept and feel good about having an aborton.
Facts are facts, simple. Let's just take out all the fancy terms and address, what is,is. An old arguement was that up to birth, baby could not survive on it's own. Which is true. Even a healthy full term baby can not survive on it's and not for many years. Today, many babies even from 24 weeks will survive, with proper medical treatment. Yet, they can also be aborted then and are even up to full term. The animal kingdom is far more intelligent than, man, they protect their young, today we kill them. Watch out, babie boomers, those who feel it is perfectly ok to kill the preborn, one day, those who have survived this holocaust, will feel it ok to kill you, when you have become unwanted, can not survive on your own. It's coming, look at the European countries, esp. Norway, etc. Because 1/3 of your generation has been aborted, who will support your Medicare, cuts will be many. For those of you who just like to sit at your computer and argue for the sake of arguing, get out there and make positive changes for our country, can't you see it going down the drain, pp has influenced this country for far too long.
October 18th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Maureen says,
"For those of you who just like to sit at your computer and argue for the sake of arguing"
Who's arguing? This is called a discussion/conversation/education…
Renee says,
"the neurological system is not "cemented" until well into adolescence"
Thank you…this was more of the answer I was searching for regarding this question. Do you have any resources for me to read more on nervous system and when it cements?
Steve,
If I had to pick a question it would be…When does life end? (sorry for any confusion) But I guess I only ask it in relation to, what clarifies/signifies us as being dead is not the same as what clarifies/signifies us as being alive.
So…what classifies us as being dead?
…..what classifies us as being alive?
If I understand everyone correctly being dead would be either lack of heart beat or nueral function.
Being alive is the moment of conception…
I'm not saying this is right or wrong so please do not make any assumptions from my analysis…I'm just noticing that I see a diference in the two…
October 18th, 2007 at 11:24 am
One more thing…
I also wanted to thank both Renee and Steve for discussing this topic w/ me. I really do appreciate the constructive dialogue.
Thanks
October 18th, 2007 at 11:33 am
Steve; what the hell do you mean viable lifestyle? When they teach children about homosexuality, it's done as an exercise in tolerance. For the nth time, it basically comes down to "Don't emotionally scar others because they're gay/they have gay relatives." Why is that objectionable? "I just feel it is" Is a crap answer and pretty immature.
Kirk; What part of that leads you believe they're trying to get your kids to be gay? "It has its rewards"? That part? I believe they're referring to knowing your accepted by your parents/friends/relatives/community and that keeping it a secret is an unnecessary and very emotionally taxing burden.
October 18th, 2007 at 11:38 am
Billions of neurons are formed in the brain. This brain cell formation begins in the human embryo after the basic brain structures are formed. By five weeks following fertilization, an embryo starts a phenomenal cell division in the forebrain region, which ultimately creates the cerebral hemispheres. In fact, between the fifth and twentieth week of gestational life, an estimated 50,000 to 100,000 new brain cells are generated each second.
Once formed, neurons must migrate to the correct location in the brain. How neurons navigate to predetermined locations is the subject of intense research. Axons have specialized tips, or growth cones, that researchers believe help neurons recognize the proper pathways of migration.
Synapses begin forming. Prenatal conditions including temperature, pressure, and even a beginning hearing ability influence formation of synapses in the fetus. The fetus itself in actions such as kicking, turning, and sucking its thumb produces further stimulation of synapses. The great majority of synapses are formed after birth as the newborn starts to experience the environment.
Myelination of neurons begins. Myelin is a white-colored fatty sheath surrounding axons and functions to promote impulse conduction. Myelination begins in the spinal cord at three months gestation and continues its development in a head-to-toe direction. Myelination begins in the brain at six months gestation, following a similar head-to-toe direction, and continues into puberty and adulthood.
Myelination is the major cause of the increase in a child's brain size.
* At birth, the infant brain weighs 300-350 grams (2/3 to � pound).
* In the first four years of life, the brain increases to 80% of the adult weight of 1200-1500 grams (2.6 - 3.3 pounds).
At birth…
The newborn begins a rapid period of brain growth. Recent research challenged the prevailing belief that maximum brain growth occurs in the first three years of life. Using high-resolution three-dimensional magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans from normal children, aged 3 to 15 years, researchers documented dramatic anatomical changes in the structure of brains during childhood and early adolescence. These findings provided proof that significant brain growth continues at developmental periods beyond the first three years of life.
Few nerve centers are myelinated at birth. In the beginning, only reflexes needed for survival are completely myelinated; however, after birth the primary visual and auditory cortex neurons rapidly receive their myelination.
In childhood…
Myelination continues. During the first year-and-a-half of life, the corticospinal motor tract receives its myelination enabling gross control over arms, torso, and legs.
Neurons continue migrating into positions. Recent research challenged the assumption that neurons migrate to predetermined locations in the brain, and once there, perform only certain functions. Experiments with ferrets reconfiguring areas in their brains demonstrated it was possible for fully functioning visual pathways to develop in auditory parts of the brain. The visual abilities, arising from auditory portions of the ferrets' brains, developed in response to environmental input. Thus, the research provided some evidence that experience also influences how the brain functions.
During Adolescence…
The brain continues to change and mature during adolescence.
Final myelination of the frontal lobes occurs in early adolescence. An adolescent's brain reaches the weight of an adult brain by about age fourteen due to myelin accumulation and dendritic branching. At this time the potential for contribution to insight, judgment, inhibition, reasoning, and social conscience are possible. The adolescent's frontal lobes are increasingly active, and this ability enables the adolescent to consider several things in the mind while comparing or interrelating them.
The density of synapses declines during adolescence due to selective pruning of redundant or unused connections. Most of the pruning takes place between ages ten and sixteen bringing the density of synapses to the adult level. The pruning process produces a more orderly circuitry in all parts of the cortex based on repeated experiences of early and middle childhood.
Synapse formation continues despite ongoing pruning. The remaining dendrites continue to branch, grow, and form new synapses in response to new experiences. Continued psychological and cognitive development in adolescence is due to this dendritic growth. The prefrontal cortex responsible for reasoning and judgment continues to develop.
Into Adulthood…
The brain continuously remodels itself-even into adulthood.
Synapses continue to be formed in select areas of the brain but growth of new neurons is limited. Prevailing knowledge that the adult brain does not produce new neurons is currently being challenged. Recent research has suggested that important forebrain regions, such as the hippocampus (involved in establishing memory for facts and relationships), continue to receive new nerve cells into adulthood in humans.
Lifelong enrichment experiences are important. These experiences continue to cause dendrites to branch, grow, and form new synaptic connections. Brain development continues in adults who regularly exercise their brains with new and varied experiences. Even in adulthood, the brain is continuously remodeling itself.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Here is the site the above info came from:
http://www.fcs.uga.edu/ext/bbb/needtoknow/ch1/1_2faq2.htm
October 18th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
"In fact, between the fifth and twentieth week of gestational life, an estimated 50,000 to 100,000 new brain cells are generated each second."
All I can say is WOW! Talk about rapid growth…
Thank you so much for all of the knowledge…I know that must have taken a while to type. Much obliged.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Or copy and paste?
October 18th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
google, read, copy, paste. No problemo. Peace.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Maureen, Comment #55:
Superb!!
October 18th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
NM, if you don't mind me asking…what was superb about comment #55?
October 18th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
To Eric, the moderator,
I see that commenter Jason has several times used the word "hell" in his posts. Can we do something about that?
Also, I don't know if this blog site is the place to get into arguments about defending the sin of homosexual acts.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
I noticed Holy Trinity Church in Westmont also has the crosses up on its lawn right now.
For those who are Catholic, we look to the Theology of the Body for a better understanding God's teaching of human sexuality. You can listen to Fr. Thomas Loya speak about the Theology of the Body each Thursday morning on Relevant Radio (AM 820 & AM 930). Christopher West is also a great resource on the Theology of the Body at ChristopherWest.com.
A great resource for teens is to listen online to Jason Everts talks on Chastity Education. He is one of the best in the business. You can listen to him here…
a JasonEvertChastityTalkToHighSchoolStudents.
These alternatives are much better on educating our children on human sexuality rather than leading them down the Pro-Death Trap Planned Parenthood teaches.
Mike
October 18th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
October is Breast Cancer Awareness month…that's why we see all those Pink Ribbons everywhere… There's a new study that just recently came out that states "ABORTION is the BEST PREDICTOR of Breast Cancer". Here's the summary: The study was done by a British researcher and found that "An induced abortion leaves breast cells in a state of interrupted hormonal development in which they are more susceptible to cancer ". "It's time for scientists to admit publicly what they already acknowledge privately among themselves - that abortion raises breast cancer risk - and to stop conducting FLAWED research to protect the medical establishment from massive medical practice lawsuits". Hmmmm…. I wonder why there was NO mention of this in the MSM?
Ramir San Diego,
Great Post! Karen Malec does a lot of work bringing up this issue to the forefront. The MSM won't talk about it. Many people don't realize both contraception and abortion do have something to do with our breast cancer problem today.
Here is a link to listen to Karen Malec speak about the relationship between Contraception/Abortion & Breast Cancer…
a AudioExplainingRelationshipBetweenContraception/AbortionAndBreastCancer.
Mike
October 18th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
My post isn't showing up….?
October 18th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Jason says:
"First, humans weren't designed by god and there is no god, at least not that I'm aware of."
Hello Jason. I hope that you feel welcome here. I am hopeful that you are posting here because perhaps you are at the very least intrigued by chatting with people who do believe in God. Perhaps you have just a bit of a feeling that there is more than meets the eye in this world.
I am not great theologian or philosopher but I ask that you take a few moments to check out the following:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm
As for what I can tell you is that there is proof that there is a God if you are receptive and keep your eyes open. The proof is all around us. If you want something miraculous, miracles are with us every day. Some miracles require faith in order to see. Every Sunday I am privileged to go to church and get the opportunity to see bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. …yes that one requires some faith (though it is the most beautiful of miracles). There are others that don't require any faith - just an open mind. There are perhaps dozens of incorruptible bodies of Saints that are readily viewable. There is no scientific explanation, but they exist. There is the Shroud of Turin. Yes there are nay-sayers, but there is just as much evidence for the Shroud as there is against. Perhaps that is how God wants it. Maybe it would be too easy to believe in God if he gave he appeared on earth in some grandiose fashion. Perhaps he is looking for a little effort on our part too.
Jason, I believe that you indicated that you oppose abortion. It seems to me that you must acknowledge that there is good and evil in this world. If there was nothing more than the dust and ashes of this world, wouldn't there be no absolute truths of good and evil?
October 18th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Jason says: First, humans weren't designed by god and there is no god, at least not that I'm aware of.
Hello Jason. I hope that you feel welcome here. I am hopeful that you are posting here because perhaps you are at the very least intrigued by chatting with people who do believe in God. Perhaps you have just a bit of a feeling that there is more than meets the eye in this world.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Jason,
I am not great theologian or philosopher but I ask that you take a few moments to check out the following:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm
As for what I can tell you is that there is proof that there is a God if you are receptive and keep your eyes open. The proof is all around us. If you want something miraculous, miracles are with us every day. Some miracles require faith in order to see. Every Sunday I am privileged to go to church and get the opportunity to see bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. …yes that one requires some faith (though it is the most beautiful of miracles). There are others that don't require any faith - just an open mind. There are perhaps dozens of incorruptible bodies of Saints that are readily viewable. There is no scientific explanation, but they exist. There is the Shroud of Turin. Yes there are nay-sayers, but there is just as much evidence for the Shroud as there is against. Perhaps that is how God wants it. Maybe it would be too easy to believe in God if he gave he appeared on earth in some grandiose fashion. Perhaps he is looking for a little effort on our part too.
Jason, I believe that you indicated that you oppose abortion. It seems to me that you must acknowledge that there is good and evil in this world. If there was nothing more than the dust and ashes of this world, wouldn't there be no absolute truths of good and evil?
October 18th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Jason,
I can tell you is that there is proof that there is a God if you are receptive and keep your eyes open. The proof is all around us. If you want something miraculous, miracles are with us every day. Some miracles require faith in order to see. Every Sunday I am privileged to go to church and get the opportunity to see bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. …yes that one requires some faith (though it is the most beautiful of miracles). There are others that don't require any faith - just an open mind. There are perhaps dozens of incorruptible bodies of Saints that are readily viewable. There is no scientific explanation, but they exist. There is the Shroud of Turin. Yes there are nay-sayers, but there is just as much evidence for the Shroud as there is against. Perhaps that is how God wants it. Maybe it would be too easy to believe in God if he gave he appeared on earth in some grandiose fashion. Perhaps he is looking for a little effort on our part too.
Jason, I believe that you indicated that you oppose abortion. It seems to me that you must acknowledge that there is good and evil in this world. If there was nothing more than the dust and ashes of this world, wouldn't there be no absolute truths of good and evil?
October 18th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
I'm not a great theologian or philosopher. There are others that have argued for the existence of God much better than me. I ask that you please take a little time and visit:
newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm
October 18th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Father Richard Simon was on Relevant Radio a few weeks ago. He told the story of a priest, who had a crisis of faith, who was at a retreat. He confided that what he needed was a miracle to show him that there truly was a God. Maybe just a little miracle, but a miracle nonetheless.
One of the priests had brought along his elderly father. It seemed that the father had had gangrene on one of his toes and was to have it amputated the next day. The priests circled around the man and prayed for him. The next day the man ran through the halls shouting, "My toe! My toe! It's healed!"
The priests all gathered around and indeed the toe had healed.
The doubting priest, however, asked whether he could see the medical records. He wanted to see whether the man had truly had gangrene.
The priest had asked for a miracle. The priest had prayed for a miracle. The priest had seen a miracle. …yet he couldn't see it when it happened right in front of him.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Kirk; Listen, existence, no matter how beautiful you believe it to be, is far and away proof of a god, let alone your particular god. The shroud of turin, if it is real, is at best evidence of some dude's blood on a shroud. Miracles don't happen everyday. The example you used, of a disease going into remission, happens all the time. While the odds of it happening are quite low, given a big enough sample size, say about six and a half billion, it's bound to happen now again. So again, it's unsurprising and totally expected.
Also, if you wish to attribute the rare remissions to miracle, what about all the tragedies of the world? Surely you would have to give the credit of those to god as well.
You mentioned that good and evil are not absolute without some grandiose moral authority. You're right. Morality is relative and made up of shades of gray. But, we can for the most part make arguments for and against certain behaviors if we can agree on certain axioms, EG the golden rule. But again, this is tangential to the issue we were arguing, the morality of homosexuality.
My intentions aren't to argue for or against the existence of god, I was just saying that if you are trying to argue that homosexuality is immoral, wrong, and that homosexuals deserve to be treated poorly and be denied rights that heterosexuals enjoy, you need a good reason. If your entire argument uses god as the sole fulcrum which your reasoning rest, you would of course have to have evidence that such a being exist for your argument to hold any merit. Unfortunately, "I feel it in my heart" isn't evidence for anything. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to back them up. If the best you can come up with is some blood on a piece of cloth, you are far and away from proving the existence of a god.
You are right that I'm not a fan of abortion, but I don't believe life truly starts until after birth and that anyone, female or male, should have the final say in what happens with their bodies. Even if I were to concede that life did begin at conception, a woman's right bodily domain is still reason enough to keep abortion legal and allow it.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Jason,
Your quote from post 40:
"First, humans weren't designed by god and there is no god, at least not that I'm aware of."
John, even though we may not be able to "see" this deity, it is nevertheless rational and logical to believe that a Creator must exist cause everything must have started somewhere. It is a great mystery but there is no better rational explanation.
Here is a quote from Albert Einstein on this subject:
"Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there."
Also, the framers of our Constitution placed our "Creator" prominently at the beginning of the Declaration of Indepence.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."
Since you do not agree that there is a "Creator" who always was, is now, and will be forever, then you would not search for any truths based on what a Creator would have designed for you as a person.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Sorry John, the previous post was meant for Jason but I accintly put John in there at one point.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Jason,
you've left a lot to which to respond.
Discrimination against homosexuals is wrong. Practicing homosexuality is wrong (due to the belief of God as you indicated)If, a God exists having homosexual thoughts is not a grave sin, the problem is acting out on them. Why is it considered acceptable to act out on these desires while most would say it is wrong to act out on a desire to have an affair when one is married? Or to take it a step further, is it wrong to act out desires for bestiality or to molest children. Of course it is wrong.
If you agree that it is wrong, what is it inside you that gives you that ability to tell right from wrong?
October 18th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
In regard to the miracle of transubstantiation, please take the time to check out:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
October 18th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
In regard to the Shroud of Turin, there seems to be more to it than just blood stains. There is pollen on it from the Holy Land. (HOw did that get there?)
The image shows a crucifixion with the nails going through the wrists. If this was a forgery from the Middle Ages, why would they have done it that way. It wasn't until the last 100 years that we have had forensic and archaeological evidence that crucifixions used nails through the wrists. In the Middle ages, it was universally believed that the nails in the crucifixion were through the palms. Also, the most important question is how did the image get there?
Also, the Shroud has a "pedigree" going back to the first generation of Christianity
October 18th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Actually Jason, you would have to give credit to the tragedies and evil's of this world to the devil. He's quite powerful too these days. But not as powerful as God of course. And without suffering there would be no compassion or empathy, so suffering is necessary, as unfortunate as it very much is.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Miracles do happen every day. Perhaps not to individuals, but they are happening someplace. Perhaps to you.
Have you ever had an inexplicable moment of complete clarity. An epiphany where everything was made clear to you - even for a moment? Then it passed. Perhaps you experienced a moment in which you could have rejoiced. Something which you might have cherished for the rest of your life.
If in your cynicism you merely shrugged it off, perhaps you lost something.
Perhaps you haven't experienced anything like the above (I was just taking a stab in the dark), but I'll wager that you have experienced something that was unexplainable.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Paul; Funny, here's another quote from Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz:
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."
Einstein frequently evoked god in discussion, he used the term poetically. Again, another quote: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
And god does not solve the problem of creation. If god created everything, who created god?
Kirk; Adultery is wrong because you've basically entered a into a contract with another person via marriage saying you will be faithful to one another. Of course adultery isn't wrong if both couples decide they want to be in an open relationship. Did you really not think that question through?
Bestiality and pedophilia is wrong because neither animals or children can consent to sexual activity. Two homosexual adults can.
My ability to determine right and wrong comes primarily from socialization. The rest comes from my acceptance of some basic axioms, such as do unto others as you want done unto yourself. This is hardwired into us to an extent. Humans are very social animals and basic morality is necessary in social hierarchies. More complex morality is basically built upon widely accepted axioms such that, say, theft is wrong.
I'll get to the shroud and eucharist stuff later, I'm letting this distract me from some of my lab work due tommorow.
Your last post, you're claiming fleeting moments of joy are a miracle? That seems a bit silly.
Elizabeth; I thought god as omnipotent, you're saying satan is more powerful than god? If that's the case, you better saddle up with the winning team.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Isaac Newton, arguably the most brilliant man who ever lived believed in God.
You did present an interesting quote from Einstein. However, he also said, "Einstein spoke of the laws of nature pointing to an Infinite Mind that to him represented the true nature of God. "Every one who is seriously engaged in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that of men, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble…My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details that we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."
October 18th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Disclaimer: I am not advocating bestiality.
You stated that bestiality is wrong only because the animal is not consenting. Have you ever asked a cow for its consent before eating a hamburger? I suspect not. Therefore the example is valid.
If there is a natural law that tells you that bestiality is wrong, then that natural law is based upon something larger.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
If your sense of right and wrong is based solely on social mores (as you suggest), then homosexuality is still wrong since most of society says that its wrong. Based on your definition of what constitutes right and wrong, aren't you defending a "wrong."
October 18th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Jason, by the way, I don't think that gangrene ever goes into remission.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Jason, I never said anywhere that Satan was more powerful than God. I said he was "pretty powerful" If you took that to mean he is MORE so then God then you interpreted my statement wrong. But the devil IS alive and well in this world whether people choose to acknowledge that or not. And so is GOD. I personally believe that he is more powerful and will ultimately prevail, and please do not take my statements out of context to suit your own purposes next time okay? thanks.
October 18th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Jason,
Yes, it is a journey, my quote was from later in his life.
October 18th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
The picture is this. PP outright introduces, blatanly promotes and educates same sex relationships and promiscuity to children, and usurping of parental rights in healthcare and education. It is times we realize that PP WILL enter the classroom, indirectly, to teach these things. As I said before, the Chicago Public Schools contibuted $400,000 to PP sex ed materials. Our children right here in Aurora and surrounding communities are in DANGER. Please refocus your angry energies to helping find a solution to protecting our children.
October 19th, 2007 at 7:01 am
NM #64
Thank you.
October 19th, 2007 at 7:37 am
The existence of God has already been addressed from a RATIONAL point of view by St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century…commonly knowns as the 5Ways
October 19th, 2007 at 7:52 am
Ramir; Ahhhh hahaha. Come on, those have all been debunked for so long it's not funny.
Most modern Christian scholars would tell you these are very poor arguments, you can really find better ones than these. He starts off half way decently with some arguments and then makes utterly gigantic leaps in logic to reach predetermined conclusions that don't make much sense.
October 19th, 2007 at 10:48 am
Also, even IF those arguments where sound, I could just as easily replace "God" with "Allah" or "Shiva" Or "Flying Spaghetti Monster"
October 19th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Jason–
Jason said:
"Adultery is wrong because you've basically entered a into a contract with another person via marriage saying you will be faithful to one another. Of course adultery isn't wrong if both couples decide they want to be in an open relationship. Did you really not think that question through?"
In my earlier post at the beginning of this discussion, I also referenced pre-marital sex and masturbation, which I believe are wrong. Now, if you don't want to agree they are wrong, that's sort of your prerogative. My problem with your arguments is that you are equating my beliefs on premarital sex, adultery, masturbation, and homosexuality automatically with "bigotry and racism." Fist, "homosexual" is not a race. Second, how does having a morality structure contrary to your own automatically make me bigoted. No one should be teased, or beat up, or killed regardless of there sexual orientation. No one on this site is advocating discrimination of any kind, or any kind of violence. We're saying based on our moral structure regarding ALL sexual matters, we don't want PP teaching our kids. How does that make me steeped in "bigotry and racism"?
Erin
October 19th, 2007 at 11:48 am
You're putting words in my mouth, I never said you were racist for thinking homosexuality wasn't ok. I never called your beliefs on masturbation and premarital sex bigoted, just your views on homosexuality. Saying you don't think homosexuality isn't moral is bigoted. Plain and simple. Just as if I were to say "I don't think race mixing is moral. It's just my view of the world, it doesn't make me racist" would make me racist.
I never said anything about your views on premarital sex, masturbation or adultery. I think adultery is a wicked thing to do to someone, I can definitely understand the argument to abstain from casual sex and think it's a good idea, although I would say sex inside a committed relationship is pretty awesome though, but I am at a bit of a loss about your objections to masturbation. Isn't that area of catholic dogma based on Onan?
I wasn't even originally commenting on PP teaching your kids so much as I was commenting on some posters objections to planned parenthood's stance on homosexuality and teaching kids about it, either via PP or other tolerance workshops. Some posters actually believe PP is trying to turn their children into homosexuals.
Liz; You said satan was too powerful. God is omnipotent. Anything satan does would have to be allowed by God. So either god allows satan to do evil or god is powerless to stop him.
October 19th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Jason–
My apologies. I just reread your posts, and you did not talk about racism, just intolerance and bigotry. My fault, I'm sorry.
Ok, but back to the point. I know you never responded to my views on premarital sex, etc., and I wanted you to. That's why I wrote what I did. What I'm saying is…I believe that sex belongs within the sanctity of marriage. That's it. That's why I don't believe in premarital sex, masturbation, homosexuality, etc. etc. Because none of those things involve sex within the sanctity of marriage.
My point is, why does having a "moral" view (as I just defined it) on sex in one context make me nothing in particular, but the part of it that involves homosexuality make me bigoted? To me, it's just being consistent. If premarital sex is wrong because it is not within marriage, then homosexual sex is wrong because it is not within marriage, then adultery is wrong because it is not within marriage. One is no worse or better than the other.
Erin
October 19th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
"Once again, just because your beliefs are backed by some religion, doesn't mean they aren't bigoted or racist."
Found it! I knew their was talk about racism somewhere, but upon re-reading I HAD taken it out of context, so my apology still applies. Sorry!
October 19th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Jason, with regard to your stance on homosexuality. Almost every post keeps pounding away at the point about tolerance. I don't think anyone here disagrees with that, and thanks for pointing that out.
Sex between a man and a man is perverse behaviour. I tolerate it as long as they are not hurting anybody else.
I'll try and explain something to you. The homosexual community is losing a lot of peoples tolerance by pushing for so called "gay marriage". What is it about marriage that homosexuals want so badly? Is it the breaks on the inheritance taxes? Is it easier access to health insuurance? Then just ask for it.
But homsexual relationships are quite different than heterosexual ones. They are hurting themselves by trying to claim there is no difference. Ther never was, isn't now, and never will be such a thingas "gay marriage." No mater how many times you get people to say it. Marriage is between a man and a woman (and God
but I didn't want you to lose me cause I brought God into it).
October 19th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Ramir,
Thanks for the link to to 5Ways
October 19th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Sorry to interrupt the talk about homosexuality and beastiality but something interesting came up today. It is a beautiful day today which I think we all can agree upon that issue. Seventy degrees in October is unheard of. What is the goal of the Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood? I know of course you want abortion illegal.
But I am talking short term. The reason this came up was as I mentioned it was a beautiful today and 2 protestors ruined it for a neighbor of mine. He had his son in his car and there were 2 men again at Oakhurst and the clinic drive with again the horrible photos. One was the guy who was always there and the other I didn't get a description. If your goal is to get support of the community behind you I have to tell you have failed miserably. I just can't understand how you can show those photos to little kids. I know in previous posts I have heard "Oh that man with the horrible photos isn't part of our group" but that is pooppycock. I support every American's right to protest but this is just getting tiresome. Explain to me what your goal is? Today you made a 10 year old boy cry so pat yourself on the back…
October 20th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
We didn't make him cry. Abortion makes him cry. It makes me cry too.
October 20th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Leviticus-
And what is your definition of "failure" exactly? Because we've got a lot of people riled up…I wouldn't call that failure..I would call that progress. This issue is hardly ever spoken about because it is an uncomfortable issue and now we have debates going on everywhere. I wouldn't call that "failure." Even the signs themselves have caused debate/discussion so that is not "failure" to me.
Elizabeth
October 20th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
In Post 45, Jason says:
Also, are you illiterate? I've stated plenty of times that my point is that homosexuality isn't immoral and there's no reason to discriminate against it. That's my point.
Discrimination=Bad. There.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"
Jason, do you think it's all right to expose a 2 year old girl to live S&M "play"?
Here's a Twins.
A photographer spent 45 minutes at the "fair" this year to see if there was any validity to people's complaints. Here's a Folsom Street Fair.
And you call us the "bad" ones if we disagree with this type of "morality"?
October 20th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Leviticus -
Abortion is ugly, disgusting and terrible. It is so easy when one doesn't have to acknowledge what is happening to unborn babies. They are being dismembered, chopped up, burned, crushed, I could go on and on. It is an ugly reality. The signs are ugly and hard to look at, but they are the truth. I've had plenty of people tell me that they had no idea that is what happens to an unborn baby when they are aborted. It has changed peoples minds.
I wish I didn't have to explain to my children why someone would do that, but the truth is, I've had to. I'm at PP alot and my eight year son asked me straight out what was going on in that building. And bad things happen in there wasn't good enough. So I told him. He said, "That's sick! Why would anyone want to do something like that? Don't these girls know that babies are gifts. Why don't they give them up? Do they have to destroy the babies?" He cried. He aan't understand why anyone would think abortion is a good thing. It was a difficult discussion, and my son isn't as innocent as he was at the beginning of the summer. But the truth hurts. Abortion hurts.
October 20th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Erin -
Ok, I suppose I misunderstood you. Regardless, I imagine you're not a fan of homosexuals being allowed to marry? If you are, my apologies again. I guess we're more or less on the same page if that's the case.
Paul2 - As long as you're down with civil unions that share the same rights married couples get, then I guess I really have no objections to your views on homosexuality beyond the superficial EG homosexuality being perverse.
October 20th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
Jason–
If individuals want to choose who will share their employment benefits, who will be on their mortgage statement, who will be the recipient of their life insurance, etc, etc, etc I have no problem with that. I know couples who live together who have those same arrangements that I as a married person have. So I guess in that way, we probably agree. But I'm not going to say that those in non-marital and homosexual relationships are moral.
I believe that marriage and sex are designed by God (uh-oh, there's the G-word again), I believe there is a right and a wrong (or rather a moral and an immoral) view of sex and marriage. To bring this full circle, that's the problem that I have with PP. They are saying, as you did, that if I don't agree with their particular brand of sex ed. and don't want it taught to my kids, then I must be uneducated and bigoted and intolerant and misogynistic and, oh, I bet a bunch of other stuff too.
So that's why I'm engaging in this discussion. Because actually, I don't think any of those adjectives apply to me, nor do they apply to most PP and abortion opponents. What do you think? Do you agree that I'm a rational and un-bigoted human being, or do we keep talking?
Erin
Erin
October 20th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Elizabeth,
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. You didn't make my neighbors kid cry abortion did? That sure sounds like an easy excuse. Blame everything on abortion. Steve Trombley wasn't holding that sign. All this kid wants to do is play catch with his pop like any good kid out there but he saw these horrible photos and he lost it. Not because of abortion because it was a sick sight to see. Funny how you never answered the question about what is the goal of your group? I deem it a failure because what exactly did those 2 guys today accomplish? How bout you put those signs in front of the Mayor's house. You all see to be ticked with him. How bout at Dominick's corp HQ in Oak Brook you all seem to be ticked with them too. Why your group constantly just wants to punish the people who live near the clinic is a giant reason why I can't stand your organization. We would never have an abortion. What is your goal as a group? Take a piece of advice you did get many people riled up for the wrong reasons.
October 20th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
Oh dear Leviticus, back and forth back and forth we go. I am sorry that those photos made a child terribly upset, but to say that abortion does not make him upset? Those photos are OF abortion so how could abortion not have anything to do with him being upset? If that were my child and we lived in direct vicinity of where those photos would be shown, I would sit them down and explain it to them beforehand, so that they understand, and maybe a colossal meltdown could be avoided. But those photos make me cry too like I said. I would expect young children to cry too. And why you view our group as punishing you by putting up those photos I am not so sure. We are not punishing you. You just happen to live in that area, and that is not our fault. We are trying to open people's eyes to the horror's of abortion and showing those photos does that. I'm sorry if you view truth as punishment, but I really don't see it that way. We would be punishing you if we were doing it in a malicious manner, but I am pretty sure we aren't in front of your house with those photos, we are in front of planned parenthood, so how you can view it as a PERSONAL attack I am really not so sure. You may feel offended at the signs, but maybe you should feel more offended that planned parenthood is in your neighborhood. THAT would bother me more than some people holding signs. But I am sure that are priorities are pretty different in that respect.
October 20th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
And I meant "our" in my last sentence..it's really late and I am pretty tired so my typing is slacking haha.
October 20th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Elizabeth,
And why you view our group as punishing you by putting up those photos I am not so sure. We are not punishing you.
Huh? When you have 5 foot high signs showing dead babies several times a week that isn't punishing the neighborhood? After working a 12 hour day that is my reward to come home to my house and see that crap? It is the same guy in his late 40's to early 50's with brown hair and brown moustache. Your group claims he is not with you but that is a lie. Just like nobody knows the abortion truck guy and he picked up one of the prayer warriors the day I saw it. What do you say to the families that have lost children to illness? I have about 30 people in my complex that would have been right standing with you side to side but with the tactics that your group has taken nobody can stand with you. One family lost their baby this year and that is their fault that you are showing that filth? By the way that 10 year old boy can't comprehend what abortion is all he saw was a bloody baby that was clearly dead. I call that a punishment of the community with your pornagraphy.
October 20th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Jason
Unmarried couples should have access to health care and inheritance for all people. There is no reason why heterosexual couples should be forced to marriage to get these benefits either. Homosexual couples should not get afforded anything more than unmarried heterosexual couples. Tolerant will never mean silence when people attack the sanctity of marriage or the unparreled evil of women who would seek out somebody to kill a child that they carry in their wonb.
October 21st, 2007 at 12:38 am
Mr Jackson,
Hello again. Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. No need for personal attacks.
I have been protesting against abortion for some time myself. I understand that people are coming in from all over to Aurora to fight this battle. Some will protest by standing outside that abortion mill holding signs of what goes on inside. Even if I wanted to stop him (and I don't), I could not. And I am guessing neither could Elizabeth. So do not judge people and call them liars when they speak the truth. That doesn't help anybody.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:11 am
Here we go again. It's just like the energizer bunny: he keeps on repeating the same thing over and over and over…
The photos are hard to look at. But what is far, far worse, is that they accurately depict just what is going on inside of the evil and ugly killing factory in your neighborhood. And that is what we want to expose for everyone to see. We're not going away. We're "Here for Life!"
As far as what the Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood wants to accomplish: the goal has been stated and restated many times, but if you need to be reminded, here it is again:
THE GOAL OF THE FAMILIES AGAINST PLANNED PARENTHOOD IS:
THE PERMANENT CLOSURE OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD IN AURORA.
We will not cease and desist until that terrible killing center closes its evil doors of death for good. Period. So you'd better get used to our presence and the ugly photos that depict the atrocities that are happening inside that place.
We are peaceful. We are God-fearing. We are determined. We are not looking for approval from men, but rather from God, Who is the Judge of men's hearts and of their deeds.
Leviticus, are you are PP troll? Hmmm?? You're pretty good. You had some of us fooled for a while.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:29 am
Good Morning Pauls,
Paul,
Thank you for being the first one to answer what I thought was a very simple question. Second I may be the energizer bunny but educate me on how you are doing that by just holding up those signs? To Joe citizen you are boycotting Dominick's now because of the fence. Tell me what exactly your organization is doing to close the mill so you can get out of our hair? Do you have politicians in place? I believe there is now a candidate to run against Linda Chapalavia who is pro life is she on the bandwagon? I guess my point is to me there seems to be allot of standing around and as I said before "punishing the good people of this neighborhood because your group has a cause". By the way I do consider myself a fair person I have lived in this area for 14 years so I am no troll, my neighbors and I were thinking about checking out how you will do this fair on the 27th since there won't be any signs but I can tell you 2 families now won't be going. How you will pull it off without a yard will be a nice trick which I will tip my hat to you.
Paul2,
I find it humorous that you said I made a personal attack. This coming from somebody who called me "annoying" I believe it was. So sorry to break up the homosexuality, beastiality and masturbation discussion you had with others. How that type of talk helps your cause is beyond me. Also the guy who nobody seems to know but nobody seems to stop (the guy with the signs) you might want to tell him to hydrate. By 4pm yesterday he looked parched.
Today will be another beautiful day, go out with your families and enjoy the day. It will be cold for the rest of the week. God gave us this day to enjoy, not to punish others.
God Bless
October 21st, 2007 at 9:02 am
Leviticus,
Don't be silly, we can overcome any obstacle because God is with us. Some dumb fence will not stop our defense of the innocent babies, as you can see it sure has not stopped this discussion that you just can't seem to let go. I once had sympathy for how you felt about the signs in the neighborhood because I understand they depict something horrible, something true, but nonetheless horrible. But now I am beginning to wonder why it is you are more concerned with signs and less concerned with babies being murdered. And you think you are hurting us by telling us how "many" families won't be marching with us because of those signs. Well, Leviticus, if those people don't march with us because of any sign then their convictions don't really seem to be that strong now do they? I am not swayed in the other direction simply because of some sign-holding. So i guess they don't believe as strongly about the horrible acts going on inside that building as they thought they did.
Elizabeth
October 21st, 2007 at 9:37 am
Good Morning Mr. Jackson
Here is a quote from this website, under the "About Us" section
"Families Against Planned Parenthood is a grassroots coalition of concerned citizens, community groups, churches and neighborhoods determined to defend our families from the dangerous influence of Planned Parenthood. We want to keep Planned Parenthood out of our community."
I suppose that would be the succinct mission statement of the organization.
I am not a fan of graphic signage and I can understand why this is really traumatic for people who live in the neighborhood and have to see it every day.
At the only FAPP activity that I attended that used graphic signage, warning signs were posted at intersections before drivers would reach the images. I can only assume from this that the people out their with signs right now are NOT acting on behalf of this organization, but rather are arranging this type of protest on their own. But, I tell you what I'll do. Next time I see anyone out with a graphic sign, I'll go talk to them, find out why they're there, and find out where they got their signs. My guess is, they're on they're own. If they are, I would suggest you take your complaints to them, because they are not necessarily even reading this site.
Hey, graphic signage people! Are you reading this site? If you are, please jump in, because people who are acting in complete ignorance of your activity are trying to discuss this and even defend you. Tell your side. Thanks!
Erin
October 21st, 2007 at 9:45 am
Thank you Leviticus for your lively discussions. I don't remember saying you were annoying or the context in which I said it but that doesn't mean I didn't say it. Also, I don't just bring up masturbation, I was replying to someone else who said masturbation is murder…LOL. Just trying to break the ice by replying to his post. I hope you had a wonderful day filled with the Holy Spirit.
October 21st, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Erin,
Have a great day. Your reply was exactly the answers I was looking for.
Paul2,
I wish you the same. Have a great day.
May the Lord Bless us all and the Colorado Rockies!
I have a sense of humore too Paul 2…
October 21st, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Everyone should go see the new movie Bella! It is a wonderful movie that celebrates the value of life. The acting is superb. It is a thought-provoking and compelling story.Please try to especially go this Friday. Oct. 26, opening day, but if not, Sat. or Sunday. I have been sending out fliers with the following information on them:
BELLA is showing at
AMC Theater Cantera 30
28250 Diehl Rd. Warrenville, Il. 60555
You can order tickets at: http://www.MovieWatcher.com
Or call: 630-836-8262
TO ENCOURAGE THIS AND OTHER THEATERS
TO PROMOTE BELLA,
WE NEED A HUGE SHOWING OF PEOPLE ON
THE WEEKEND OF:
Opening Day: Oct. 26, 2007
Times: 10:30AM 12:55PM
3:15PM 5:40PM 8:05PM
10:30PM rated PG.13. Call your family and friends.
Please support Bella! It can help SAVE and change lives!
I was able to see a special screening of this movie at SS. Peter and Paul Church, Naperville, Il. by Bishop Sartain's invitation. You will be glad you took the time to see this movie! God Bless.
Karen K.
October 22nd, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Important notice: referring to post#120 some of the show times for the movie, Bella, at the AMC Theater Cantera 30 in Warrenville, IL. HAVE CHANGED! Check with the AMC Theater- http://www.MovieWatcher.com or call 847-765-7AMC
It is a beautiful movie, definitely worth taking the time to see!
October 25th, 2007 at 9:51 pm