Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood

Dominick's erects fence under cover of night

Posted by Eric Scheidler on Friday, October 12th, 2007

Fence on vacant lot -- click for largerLate last night I got a call from stalwart prayer warrior Bruce Sutcliff that a chain-link fence was being erected around the vacant lot across from the entrance to Planned Parenthood.

The fence completely blocks off the spot from which we have been reaching out to Planned Parenthood clients.

(By the way, you can click on any of the pictures on this page for a high resolution version.)

Planned Parenthood has been griping about our presence in that lot ever since they opened. They launched a telephone campaign, calling on Dominick's to throw us off that lot.

Last night, Dominick's caved to Planned Parenthood.

I had been in touch with Victor Carlson, the general manager of the Dominick's, and Winona Redmond, with public affairs at Dominick's corporate office. I explained that we just wanted to be left alone there to reach out to women in crisis.

Fence on vacant lot -- click for largerWhen I talked to Ms. Redmond on Monday, she said she appreciated my input and that I would be "the first one I call" if any decision was made about what to do.

Today I learned from Andre Salles of the Beacon that the permit application for the fence was dated October 4, four days before I spoke to Ms. Redmond. So far today, Ms. Redmond has not returned my calls. I hear she's out sick—but she did talk to the Beacon.

According to Andre, they cite public safety concerns do to the recent activity in the area. Of course, we've been out there, occasionally setting foot on that lot, since August 9. All of a sudden, two days after Planned Parenthood opens and realizes we might have an impact on their business, it's a public safety concern.

So what should we do about it? I suggest three action items:

  1. Go check it out. Drive by — today if you can — and take a look for yourself at the fence and the No Trespassing signs.
  2. Decide whether you can keep shopping at Dominick's or not. As for me, I won't shop at Dominick's until the fence and signs come down. I'll be dropping off my Dominick's Fresh Card at the customer service counter with a note that as long as that fence is up, I won't be shopping there.
  3. Call Dominick's and parent company Safeway and tell them what you think about their action:
    • Fence on vacant lot -- click for largerVictor Carlson
    • General Manager
    • Dominick's Store
    • 630-236-0683
    • Please call Dominick's customer line instead: 877-723-3929
    • Winona Redmon
    • Public Affairs
    • Dominick's Corporation
    • 630-891-5000 x5157 (Update 10/15: Goes to voicemail)
    • Brian Dowling
    • Public Affairs VP
    • Safeway Corporation
    • 925-467-3000

Now, no one disputes that Dominick's has the right to put up that fence. But they didn't have to. They could have just stayed out of it and let us be there offering help to women and praying for them. Instead, they put up a fence.

This is a disappointing development, but far from discouraging. On the contrary, that fence goes to show how effective our whole campaign has been. Look how far the devil will go just to hassle us! He really hates what we're doing here in Aurora.

So let's keep doing it.

Note: The fence will not disrupt the October 27 "We're Here for Life" Rally.

This entry was posted on Friday, October 12th, 2007 at 3:58 pm and is filed under Community Impact, News, Planned Parenthood. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

410 Responses to “Dominick's erects fence under cover of night”

  1. Ginnie L. Giacomo says:

    I think we should concentrate on removing any funding for PP. If they don't make money they'll leave on their own.

    Also since the southern sates have been so successful in ridding themselves of abortion why don't we copy their style.

    October 12th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
  2. Greg Guest says:

    Hear, hear, Eric. Well put this fence presents a lot of messages. Although it was put up by permit. It clearly does not meet city standards as established by the 2007 fence standards booklet; but the Mayor's legal team ok'd it. Secondly, if there is any question about where Dominick's or Safeway stands on this issue, we know now. They are not neutral. (next we'll have parking problems.) PP is clearly affected by our efforts: guards that harass us, fences erected in the dark of night (berlin wall-ish), lies about violence. I am only strengthened by there tactics. We will overcome.

    October 12th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
  3. Tim says:

    I have already decided to do my shopping elsewhere. Dominicks and Safeway are on my list of merchants to avoid. I called the store this morning and also corporate to voice my disappointment. The store manager was nice enough telling me there was nothing he could do and that I should call corporate, he went so far as to say he was a church going family man and had nothing to do with the decision to put up a fence. Corporate tried to tell me they put up the fence because of "activity" on the lot and they were not taking sides. I replied that they are taking sides caving to PP and that I have never seen any trouble with the "activity" at the vacant lot. I then informed her I had no option but to no longer be considered a customer of theirs. She then tried to spin it saying they weren't taking sides and I again told her I don't buy that story and they should really be upset with PP sneaking next door to them and that pro life families have strong conviction and will follow through with a boycot. At that point she hung up. Kind of made me even angrier as I was being very polite, just not agreeing with her. SO for now it is bye, bye, Dominicks.

    October 12th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
  4. Vince says:

    I am going directly with my Fresh Values card to my local Schaumburg Dominicks to hand it to the manager stapled with a color printout of this page. That's it. No more business to Dominick's from me until they change their tune. Right now they are way off key, and it makes me sick to hear it!

    October 12th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
  5. Drake says:

    Great, so in addition to having an abortion mill in the neighborhood, local residents also get a thousand yards of slap-dash chain link fencing to go with it. PP sure is a good neighbor!

    October 12th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
  6. juli says:

    I think the idea of not shopping at Dominicks is an excellent idea (and I opposed general boycotting of Aurora businesses in the blog earlier). With one addition. We have to let Dominicks/Safeway know what we are doing and why. Several people have mentioned that already, I just wanted to emphasize it and agree. They would not miss my shopping dollars if I did not make a point of letting corporate know.

    BUT, we are not near defeat! We will not loose hope! Our God is an Awesome God and God's People here are awesome!

    BTW We would never find out for sure, but I just can't help but wonder who paid for that fence…………

    God Bless Your Day,
    juli c. pealstrom

    October 12th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
  7. JOHN ALVARADO says:

    Remember how 20 years ago President Reagan stood by the wall separating East Germany from the west, and asked the Russian president, "Mr. Gorbachev, take down this wall". This incredible request, coupled with the events in Poland, and the efforts by Pope John Paul, resulted in the eventual destruction of that evil wall. So let us never lose hope. With GOD on our side, this fence also will fall – we will prevail – Vivat JESU!

    October 12th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
  8. Carrie says:

    I am not shopping there either.. for them to say they are not taking sides and then to act on the side of PP it is just wrong.. Heck.. I should have known that they were baby unfriendly and not give a rats booty about baby's when I went to change my baby and there was no changing table. I thought that was odd. Anyhow, I stopped going there a while ago, but now I think I am going to just never set foot in one again. I have also told everyone in my family, and my hubby's family (and he has 6 sisters and 1 brother, and they all have kids).

    October 12th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
  9. Jeff says:

    from Jeff; I just goy off the phone with Victor C, gen. manager Dominics. He says nothing would make him happier than to see this all go away. He sounded sympathetic to the pro-life cause. He's following direction from Safeway corporate authority. A fence doesn't prevent the truth. We, as pro-life supporters, have legal rights and space open to us being citizens. Let us bind together in love of neighbor, born and pre-born, sharing the contagious joy found in service to God our father, and work for peace and freedom with the tools this great country avails to us. Let us not let a fence distract us from who the enemy and liars and "freedom takers" are. Law makers are subject to the law as well as the people they serve. Before I got off the phone with Victor C. we wished mutual blessings from God on each other; maybe Safeway/Dominics will ally with us in some other way. Peace and perseverance of Jesus Christ be with us. 10/12/07 p.m.

    October 12th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
  10. Delores M. Ryan says:

    I am not affected by this particular Dominick's fence, bu I will add my telephone protest to others. God will not be defeated, no matter how much Satan tries. He has thrown down the gauntlet and we are gladly picking it up and are ready to do war with him ouselves.

    October 12th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
  11. Frank says:

    I called them to thank them in the name of MY jesus for putting up the fence. MY jesus loves abortion and born women and doesn't care that much about unborn blobs. I am also sending planned parenthood (a WONDERFUL organization) a donation in your names.

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
  12. Jerry Nickels says:

    Just a few thoughts: Now that Dominicks has made it less safe for pedestrians to come and go to their store, are they exposed to even more liability if an injury were to occur due to a pedestrian having nowhere to go to avoid an errant vehicle? Winter is right around the corner, and with it slippery surfaces. Perhaps it is time for them to install a sidewalk to ensure greater public safety. Can/should the city weigh in on this public safety concern?

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
  13. FOM says:

    Yay, Dominicks!! I am so happy that center opened. I am so happy that they will be able to stay open sans Jesus Freaks "ministering" with their bull horns and lame bucket shots. I was once on of you. I used to picket clinics. I am so glad my brain grew back. Hey, guess what, four thousand women will avail themselves of their choice to end their unwanted pregnancies TOMORROW. Yay, Choice!!!

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
  14. Frank says:

    To FOM: praise jeeeezus! i am so happy you overcame your evil ways and have seen the truth and the light. may the ignorant others who care not about womens' rights see the truth as you have. god bless you my child. your reward shall be in heaven. may the python of monty be always by your side!

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
  15. FOM says:

    Thanks, Frank. But, you know, being an ex-born again xian, the wonderful feeling of freedom and peace I get knowing there is no sky daddy and there is no eternity, is all I need. Thanks again and may the FSM touch you with his noodley appendage.

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
  16. Erin says:

    I just wrote my letter of disgust and taped my Fresh Values card to it. I'll be dropping it off tomorrow. Let's see if we can get word out to the point where there will be a line of people at Customer Service returning their cards!

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
  17. Charles says:

    In addition to a total ban on Dominick’s, I would suggest determining if the other businesses in that strip mall lease their property from Safeway – or a legal entity related to them. And if any do, I will ban them as well. Additionally, I will be sending each lessee and their corporate offices (if applicable) a letter indicating the reasons behind my decision – and of course – a CC of those letters to the Dominick’s store and head offices of each letter.

    As of now, the Chase Bank leases space in the Dominick’s. I will be closing my accounts there and drafting the letter tonight!

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
  18. Drake says:

    We need to petition the city to put up a sidewalk on the south end (easement) side of that property vacant lot. It is THEIR OWN FAULT that this has happened. If PP has a right to be there, we have a right to peacefully assemble and protest(a right that is actually NAMED in the constitution and not found in some "penumbra"). Pontius Weisner and his "planning commission" need to take steps immediately to pour a sidewalk in place.

    After all, don't we want to encourage people to drive less?

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
  19. Frank says:

    "As of now, the Chase Bank leases space in the Dominick’s. I will be closing my accounts there and drafting the letter tonight!"

    They will surely be devastated. America will spiral into a deep financial depression if you carry out your threat. Please reconsider. Billions of peoples' jobs hang in the balance. Bwahahaha.

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
  20. Frank says:

    "I just wrote my letter of disgust and taped my Fresh Values card to it. I'll be dropping it off tomorrow. Let's see if we can get word out to the point where there will be a line of people at Customer Service returning their cards!"

    Great idea, but one drawback – most sane people don't really care that much.

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
  21. Ana McCarthy says:

    The name of the Dominick's Store manager is Victor Karlson – These events began to unfold last October 6, 2007 around 10:27 a.m. when Mr. Terry D. Rogers, Chief Investigator for Dominick's finer Foods, Inc., located on 711 Jorie Boulevard, MS 4325, Oak Broak, IL 60523 (Phone 630/891-5474 – Cell 630/688-2821 – Fax 630/891-5470 – terry.rogers@safeway.com), approached a group of people gathered to pray. Mr. Roger requested that we move from the site due to "liability issues". He also claimed that several complaints has been filed in regards to protestors at the vacant lot…. I couldn't help to notice that Mr. Rogers had a police badge and upon my inquiry he stated that he was a retire police officer.

    We requested time to move the chairs, signs, but Mr. Rogers requested we move everything asap or faced arrest. Just minutes later and around 10:41 a.m. Sgt. Woods came to the sidewalk and took several pictures. … Sgt. Woods stated that signs could not be around the sidewalk and he began to inquire about a larger sign and further explain the signs could only be hold by a person and place down on the sidewalk if the person was resting from holding the sign.

    Seconds later Officer Gallardo with badge # 230 accompanied by Officer Zegar (#288) requested that (a person) to stop walking up and down the road and in front of the clinic. As this person prayed and chanted walking up and down the road. Others inquired if this new rule applied to any other person walking to the Dominick's store and Mr. Gallardo said "no" if a person goes to Dominick's to make a purchase and walks back after making this purchase this rule does not apply.

    Mr. Gallardo warned that (this person) or any other person from our group walking continuously up and down the road was going to be arrested. As we inquired for a business card, Mr. Gallardo pointed that Sgt. Jim Boatman (#424) as the Sergeant in charge. Sgt Jim Boatman reiterated that in fact any person walking on the side of the clinic was going to be arrested. He added that we needed to walk on the other side of the street and next to the empty lot. He also explained that the Dominick's is required to file certain documents with the city in order to request people to vacate the site.

    11:28 a.m. Mr. Terry D. Rogers came outside and called me. He stated that vacating the lot was a legal procedure and until such was acquired from the City we could return to the empty lot until further notice.

    I understand that instead of filing a request with the City of Aurora, Dominick's rushed to rent a fence. I noticed that this fence is dangerously close to the road. Does this fence violates any safety ordinance in Aurora? Now that pedestrians can't walk on either side of the road, do we walk in the middle of the access road?
    I called Dominick's (877-723-3929), to cancelled my "Fresh Values Card" and express my dissatisfaction. Upon finding the store in question, the customer service representative mentioned that he was intructed to read the a statement to me: “…The fence was installed solely as a safety measure to insured the safety of the general populous.”…no comments.

    October 12th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
  22. FOM says:

    Yeah, all those "boycotts" by fundies really put a dent in Disney, too. Keep up the good work, guys. LOL.

    October 12th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
  23. Kathi says:

    I'm sorry to say I'm not surprised, and I'm wondering if Safeway/Dominicks weren't the ones to sell Planned Parenthood their lot? Does anyone know? If this chain cares so little about human life, do you really trust their food supply anyway?

    October 12th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
  24. Frank says:

    "If this chain cares so little about human life, do you really trust their food supply anyway?"

    Soylant Green is people!!!!!

    October 12th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
  25. Steve says:

    Obstacles can also be opportunities. I suggest that we add fence decorating to the rally on October 27th.

    October 12th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
  26. Ana McCarthy says:

    I agree, there is a need for a sidewalk. Do you know if a permit is required to place the fence. If so, does the City of Aurora issued a permit for this fence and do you know if it has been inspected or notice has been posted. Also, I did not know that City employees worked night hours to inspect. If so, who pays them or is it at the expense of tax payers?

    In addition, my liability concerns comes from the precarious state of the fence and how closely it sits to the road. I ponder, I don't think that this is legal. My concern is how this could happen in the United States. In law, there is a principle called "Servidumbre" which is in English means: a property easement that affects the domain of real estate, limiting some of the rights inherent in the ownership and forcing the owner of the property to allow one or more third parties, under the same, to engage in certain activities like walking to a destination using the right of "servidumbre" to avoid the use of roads driven by motor vehicles.

    Usually, a barrier, wall, etc, has to be constructed within a distance from the street, further, the City of Aurora should have ownership of land from the edge of the road up to a number certain distance.

    I am going to request apologies from the readers. I am so sorry, and please pardom my nonsense. The problem about my wanting to make sense of this matter, is that I was raised in Panama, a third-world country, that distrus PP (known as APLAFA) and has rejected the "generous" monetary offers of the UN to make abortion legal. I believe that the last proposal of the UN was met by massive demonstrations and therefore rejected by a lanslide. Did I mentioned that the Senator that proposed this measure is in serious trouble with his constituants.

    Most of the property rights is based on the right that a person is entitled to access a property on certain basis.

    October 12th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
  27. Frank says:

    "Obstacles can also be opportunities. I suggest that we add fence decorating to the rally on October 27th."

    Better bring extra money so you can post bail.

    October 12th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
  28. Becca says:

    Hey guys, do you think Dominicks had to aquire a "special use permit" to put up their fence?? Sorry, I couldn't resist. I also believe that a fence wont hamper what the Lord has called us to do. Our God is bigger than any fence. FOM I just want you to know that its easy to spot a person who is hurting inside. Lots of times they mask their hurt with anger. I will pray that God speaks to your heart. In fact maybe He already is…. Just a thought.

    October 12th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
  29. Frank says:

    " FOM I just want you to know that its easy to spot a person who is hurting inside. Lots of times they mask their hurt with anger. I will pray that God speaks to your heart. In fact maybe He already is…. Just a thought."

    Yes, and a silly one. Don't be jealous of people with brains who can think for themselves. Isn't envy a sin? Repent before it's too late.

    October 12th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
  30. FOM says:

    Hey, Becca,

    You listed Christian Cliches 4, 5 and 15

    4. "SALVATION IS OBVIOUSLY A VERY SORE SUBJECT FOR YOU – YOU ARE SO FULL OF HATE AND CONTEMPT"

    Your arguments against born again fundamentalism make sense. I'll have to change the focus of our discussion.

    5. "SOMEONE IN THE CHURCH MUST HAVE CAUSED YOU A GREAT DEAL OF HURT FOR YOU TO FEEL THIS WAY"

    You couldn't have possibly left Christianity just because you studied the Bible and you think you found inconsistencies and errors in it.

    15. I WILL PRAY FOR YOU.

    I can't imagine that you have ever prayed you unregenerate twit. And even if you do pray, you are not a born again Christian so you probably don't pray very well. I am saved and I can pray much better than you. God will probably answer my prayers before he answers yours.

    October 12th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
  31. Erin says:

    Frank–

    Yeah, you're right. That Montgomery Bus Boycott that launched the modern Civil Rights movement and the career of MLK, for example. What a waste of time that was.

    October 12th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
  32. FOM says:

    Yo, Erin, please post evidence that ANY fundy boycott has ever worked. Thanks.

    October 12th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
  33. Phil says:

    Internet Primer 101:

    Sometimes particularly popular message boards and websites will become targets of attacks by those who disagree with the basic premise of the board. Here's how it works. A contrarian posts a particularly inflammatory post with the goal of derailing the thread (this is called this trolling.) The other participants then become so focused on replying to the inflammatory post that the entire thread devolves into a messy name calling game. To diffuse a trolling attempt you only need ignore the troll. Eventually after unsuccessfully trying to gain attention they will simply leave.

    *Keep the discussion ON topic
    *Encourage debate not attacks
    **Do not feed the trolls**

    Thanks, Phil

    October 12th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
  34. Jerry says:

    Great advise Phil, it is a much better read and plan to ignore FOM and Frank then engage them and there nonsense.
    Jerry K.

    October 12th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
  35. Brian says:

    "Respect for human life find an ultimate expression in the bond of love the mother has for her child"

    Justice Kennedy, Carhart vs. Gonzales, the law of the land. We will win.

    October 12th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
  36. Leviticus Jackson says:

    In this day and age where you can get millions for spilling hot coffee in your lap it was only a matter of time for a giant corporation to stop the protest. With all the rallies there imagine if somebody tripped and hurt themselves. Dominicks was just trying like any other corporation would to save itself from a suit. Victor is a good man who I know that store donated to the last baby shower so any anger directed at the local store is completely misdirected. Also there is quite a bit of vacant land across New York Street next to the bank and down by the gun range in which a possible rally can be held.

    October 12th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
  37. Patricia says:

    Shame on Dominicks.

    That vacant lot has been there for how long?
    Any adult or child could have gotten injured on their property.
    They werent worried about their liability until planned parenthood voiced their opposition to the pro life people who have been peacefully assembling there.

    We will not be shopping at Dominicks unless they have a change of heart.

    No one deserves the torturing and murder which goes on in the abortion mills, especially not the defenseless, innocent human beings who deserve the same right to life as the rest of us.
    And this is what pro choice people call a womens right?

    We must never cease to pray that all women will realize that abortion is degrading and dehumanizing and in the end strips a female of all self respect.

    A child is a gift from our Creator.

    October 12th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
  38. Colleen says:

    Shame on you Dominicks for caving into PP. I turned in my Fresh Values Card tonight. Seeing the fence reminds me of one word:

    Auschwitz!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Fence or no fence…LIFE will prevail!

    October 12th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
  39. Paul says:

    To Anna,

    Regarding permitting and ordinances on fences, I found some Aurora ordinances that apply to fences in general and chain link fences in particular. These ordinances need to be looked into further by someone like Vince Tessitore. The point you made about "the precarious state of the fence and how closely it sits to the road" is very important. The location of the fence along the access road forces pedestrians walking into the Dominick's shopping center to be too close to the vehicular traffic on that access road. This is a far, far greater liability issue that needs to be raised to both Dominick's/Safeway AND the Aurora City Council. I urge Aurora residents to please bring this up to the City Council. Take photographs, get legal help.

    And now, the quotes pulled from the Aurora City Code,
    APPENDIX A: ZONING:

    SECTION 4. USE REGULATIONS

    4.2. Permitted Uses & Structures

    4.2-4.6. Sight Triangle.
    Within fifteen horizontal feet (15’) of intersecting property lines at public streets, walks, driveways, bike paths, or walking paths, fences shall not exceed three (3’) feet in height, whether solid or open fencing is used.

    4.2-4.17. Vacant Lots. No fence shall be permitted to be constructed on a vacant lot unless said lot is immediately adjacent to a property occupied by a building or buildings and under common ownership (contiguous lot under single ownership).

    4.2-4.19. Fences in the Right-of-Way. No fence, wall or other similar screening material shall be erected or maintained in any public right-of-way except those fences, walls and other screening material erected for the purpose of insuring the public safety by a public body having proper authority.

    4.2-4.23. Non-residential districts.
    A. Fence height. The maximum permitted fence height is six (6) feet. Fence height when used for the purposes of screening is increased to eight (8) feet pursuant to
    the Landscaping and Screening provisions contained in the Landscaping section of the Bulk Restriction.

    The following ordinances are from SECTION 7. RESIDENTIAL DISTRICTS — and may or may not apply to the Dominick's fence:

    7.3-3. Fence and Wall Regulations
    7.3-3.2. Prohibited Materials.

    A. Temporary fences, including snow fences shall be prohibited in residential districts, except when required by City regulations or by the Building Code for
    construction or excavations.

    B. Chain link is prohibited when adjacent to and viewed from a public right-of way.
    For purposes of the fence regulations an alley is not considered a public right-of-way.
    C. Slatted Chain Link.
    Slatted chain link fences shall be prohibited in residential districts.

    7.3-3.3. Placement on a lot.
    Fences may be erected up to, but not over property lines, and shall also be setback a minimum of one (1) foot from all public sidewalks.

    7.3-3.5. Fences adjacent to driveways (Obstruction Triangles).
    Where a fence abuts any driveway, an obstruction triangle measured fifteen (15) feet along the property line and fifteen (15) feet up the driveway shall be
    maintained for any fences over three (3) feet solid or four (4) feet open.

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:17 am
  40. Paul says:

    The above zoning ordinances can be found at:

    http://aurora-il.org/communitydevelopment/planning/ordinance.asp

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:20 am
  41. Fran says:

    Charles, you mentioned closing your Chase acct. That is a good idea for another reason. Chase is on the boycott list of contributors to planned parenthood. So we know where their loyalties lie. Personally,I haven't shopped at Dominicks for about twenty years now because of another dispute, but this reaffirms my resolve. I am a very loyal customer when the service is good. I am also very loyal to a boycott.

    October 13th, 2007 at 3:44 am
  42. Frank says:

    "Great advise Phil, it is a much better read and plan to ignore FOM and Frank then engage them and there nonsense."

    "advise"? "there"? "read and plan"? Did any antichoicers graduate from high school? Sure doesn't seem like it.

    October 13th, 2007 at 6:29 am
  43. Frank says:

    "Sometimes particularly popular message boards (which this isn't, btw) and websites will become targets of attacks by those who disagree with the basic premise of the board. Here's how it works."

    Dishonest, close-minded poster begins to lose the debate. Dishonest, close-minded poster, ashamed and humiliated, lashes out, STEALS someone else's definition of an internet troll, posts it, and urges fellow debate losers to ignore the debate winner(s). This results in dishonest, close-minded posters talking incoherently among themselves. Bereft of any potentially successful arguments, dishonest, close-minded posters then, unsuccessfully trying to save face, knowing they have lost, but pretending to have won by ignoring the arguments that soundly defeated their absurd assertions.

    Ignoring one's debate opponents is, at best, a chickenspit tactic, IMO.

    VIVA Planned Parenthood! My money and my kid go to PP! Hooray!

    October 13th, 2007 at 6:45 am
  44. Frank says:

    "Also since the southern sates have been so successful in ridding themselves of abortion why don't we copy their style."

    Um, there are clinics all over the southern states. R v W is the law EVERYWHERE.

    October 13th, 2007 at 6:47 am
  45. Terry says:

    While I don't like what Dominick's did or how they did it, I can see why they want to limit their liability. To get rid of that concern, maybe someone should try to lease the land from them for a minimal amount. They shouldn't want much money since they aren't making any money with it now anyway. The key would be that their liability would be lifted. Of course, the liability would fall on the new owner. Just a thought that Eric's team may want to run with. In the mean time, I plan to let my local Dominick's know my feelings on this.

    October 13th, 2007 at 6:50 am
  46. Frank says:

    Hey Phil – read this: We welcome a free and open exchange of ideas on this blog, from all points of view…

    Maybe you should focus on why your side (not just here) is losing the abortion debate and not on trying to silence the winning side. Talking (muttering) to yourself can't be very fulfilling.

    PP will be opening several other "mega-clinics" around the country in the next few months. Aurora's facility is the prototype, the model for many more such clinics which will be springing up all over the landscape of this great nation! Try ignoring THAT reality. :)

    October 13th, 2007 at 6:53 am
  47. Frank says:

    "Shame on you Dominicks for caving into PP. I turned in my Fresh Values Card tonight. Seeing the fence reminds me of one word:

    Auschwitz!!!!!!!!!!!!"

    Comparing the abortion of blobs to the murder of the Nazis' born, living victims is reprehensible. IMO. And the extra "!!!!!!!!!!!!!" doesn't make it any less despicably contemptible.

    OTOH, maybe Dominicks will be forced to shut down their billion dollar corporation due to a half dozen people turning in their Fresh Values cards. *snicker*.

    Or not, you were probably just clogging up the aisles, looking lost, anyway.

    October 13th, 2007 at 7:02 am
  48. Frank says:

    "then become so focused on replying to the inflammatory post that the entire thread devolves into a messy name calling game."

    Hmmmm, YOU seem to be the one calling names, which I guess makes YOU the troll. Oooooops.

    October 13th, 2007 at 7:05 am
  49. Kathi says:

    Frank
    You certainly get all riled up about this blog. Get a life!

    October 13th, 2007 at 7:32 am
  50. Frank says:

    "You certainly get all riled up about this blog. Get a life!"

    Ooooooooh, Kathi, that was original. NOT. I'm not riled at all, just having fun by refuting lies of the fundie misogynists. Since my success at that clearly upsets you, maybe you should take Phil-troll's advice ("advise") and ignore me. If you're not too busy burning your Fresh Values card.

    October 13th, 2007 at 7:38 am
  51. Dawn says:

    I agreee with Kathi – Frank has too much time on his hands. He sure has a disproportionate number of posts on this thread. If he thinks we're all wasting our time then why is he following us so closely?

    October 13th, 2007 at 7:47 am
  52. Phil says:

    My wife and I have put together a short letter for the Dominick's management, we'll deliver it with our fresh values card today. Grocery stores have a particularly thin profit margin so we might actually see some traction even with a small boycott. However it's key that we let Dominick's know our position especially in writing. If we all do this I think we have a pretty good chance of seeing this fence come down.

    -Phil

    October 13th, 2007 at 7:48 am
  53. Frank says:

    "If he thinks we're all wasting our time then why is he following us so closely?"

    "following" you? Get over yourself, please. I am (and have been for a long time) a major Planned Parenthood supporter. Financially, hands-on (IRL), and on the occasional message board. I'm having fun, sorry if you guys aren't. Well, not really.

    The losing side usually doesn't have fun.
    And PP is winning, in Aurora, and across the country.

    Btw, I type about 100 wpm, so you don't need to concern yourself with the number, length, or frequency of my posts. Focus on the content.

    Oh, yeah. You can't, because that would be a slam dunk win for me. Sweet.

    October 13th, 2007 at 8:02 am
  54. Frank says:

    "If we all do this I think we have a pretty good chance of seeing this fence come down."

    Having had direct contact with Dominick's corporate HQ, I KNOW you have no chance of that. The fence stays.

    Or, you could resort to typical antichoice violence and knock it down with your Hummer. But that would be wrong. As if you care.

    October 13th, 2007 at 8:05 am
  55. Kathi says:

    We now have two Kathi's blogging. I wasn't #49.

    October 13th, 2007 at 8:57 am
  56. Kirk says:

    The phone number for Winona Redmon, Dominick's public affairs (630-891-3000) does not appear to be a good number. Has anyone else gotten through?

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:05 am
  57. Eric Scheidler says:

    I think I just saw someone call a woman a misogynist. Silly, but not surprising.

    I would remind all that personal attacks will not be tolerated on this blog; those whose egos are invested in getting attention here would do well to avoid phrases like "fundie misogynists" and "typical anti-choice violence."

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:06 am
  58. Kirk says:

    I also called Brian Dowling, Public Affairs VP for Safeway Corporation. Though it is a Saturday, I thought that the number looked like Safeway's main number and I would at least be able to leave a voicemail. This phone number (925-467-3000) however keeps ringing without anyone answering.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:11 am
  59. Kathi says:

    Frank, Your tone through out this blog is very typical of what we prolifers have come to know of your side.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:13 am
  60. Kirk says:

    I just went to Safeway's website, and we do have the listed contact info for Brian Dowling:
    5918 Stoneridge Mall Road, Pleasanton, CA 94588
    Tel: 925-467-3000

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:15 am
  61. Frank says:

    "I think I just saw someone call a woman a misogynist. Silly, but not surprising."

    If you are referring to post 50, no one called any particular woman (including the OP) anything. Please go back and read it again.

    "I would remind all that personal attacks will not be tolerated on this blog; those whose egos are invested in getting attention here would do well to avoid phrases like "fundie misogynists" and "typical anti-choice violence."

    While I well understand why those phrases might offend you personally, using them in a general sense about an unspecified group is hardly a personal attack.

    Nevertheless, since this is *your* blog and you get to make the rules (which I agree are reasonable), I will TRY to avoid those terms in the future.

    I am sure you will apply those rules (and give similar lectures) to those posters who support your position also, right? So far, you haven't.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:23 am
  62. Patricia says:

    Found this on Citizenlink.com.

    With the mess that is going on with our Illinois budget, perhaps we will be blessed enough to have our abortion mills shut down thru lack of funding!

    Planned Parenthood Will Close Five Michigan Clinics

    Planned Parenthood of West Michigan and Northern Michigan is facing a combined 40 percent cut in state and federal funding this year, prompting the closure of five clinics. Facilities in White Cloud and Hart closed Monday; centers in Grand Rapids, Muskegon and Mount Pleasant will close by the end of the year.

    "It is good news because Planned Parenthood is America's No. 1 abortion provider and promoter," said Pam Sherstad, director of public information for Right to Life of Michigan. "Women deserve better than Planned Parenthood."

    The reduction stems from changes in how the state allocates money. Under the new formula, funds are distributed according to the percentage of recipients below the poverty line. This year, Planned Parenthood will receive $1 million in state and federal funds, down from $1.7 million last year.

    Sherstad said there are more than 100 pregnancy and adoption centers in Michigan serving women — centers that are not run by Planned Parenthood.

    "We do have the resources in Michigan to help women who are faced with an unplanned pregnancy," she said.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:26 am
  63. Frank says:

    "Frank, Your tone through out this blog is very typical of what we prolifers have come to know of your side."

    Which Kathi are you?

    It is not surprising that well-researched, articulate, HONEST posts and comments are anathema to you.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:28 am
  64. Kirk says:

    It is great to see that people are contacting Dominick's to voice their concerns. From, reading this thread, however, it is unclear whether anyone has talked to the people at their Corporate office, other than Eric's earlier conversation. It suspect that others have tried but have not been able to reach them. While it is nice to drop off your card at the local Dominick's word of this simple protest might not make its way back to the corporate office (where it is likely that the decisions are made). I suggest that we focus on reaching the Corporate people – and not just the PR people. Their Business Ethics Hotline is at 1-866-239-1376 or email address at business.ethics@safeway.com
    Eric did give the correct phone number for Safeway's corporate office. In this day and age it is amazing that they didn't at least have a recorded message. It is: \
    Safeway Inc.
    5918 Stoneridge Mall Road
    Pleasanton, CA 94588-3229
    Phone: 925-467-3000
    Mr. Steven Burd , CEO
    Mr. Robert L. Edwards , CFO and Exec. VP, and
    Ms. Larree M. Renda , and Chief Admin. Officer,

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:33 am
  65. Karen says:

    When I read Frank's responses I have to say I vision a immature, spoiled, nasty, miserable little boy, with a equally nasty grin on his face. Kind of how Satan would look like as a child. Murdering human beings in the womb is not God's way. So pray as you might, your evil talk to God reflects like a mirror off of Him, only to ensure your damnation. Repent my friend, God will not be mocked. And if you have more to say against the saving of those innocent humans in the womb, you are futher garranteeing your demise.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:34 am
  66. Cassandra says:

    Hey guys I just wanted to let you know that Yreka Christian Fellowship (CA) has gotten wind of what's going on & were praying! I'm gonna tell my Mom to boycott Safeway & see if we can't get others involved (I'm 13).
    Take heart in the fact that Planned Parenthood is persecuting you. That means your really annoying them!
    Love From California

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:43 am
  67. Common Sense says:

    Guess who uttered these words: "Those who have no love for children are swine, stocks, and logs unworthy of being called men or women."

    Do you think this was the mad drivelings of some medieval Pope? No, it was Martin Luther, founder of the Reformation. Joining him as pro-life proponents were other Protestant leaders: John Calvin, John Wesley, Robert Dabney, Charles Spurgeon, A.W. Pink, Zacharius Ursinus, Heirnrich Bullinger, Cotton Mather, Herbert Leupold, Johann Keil, Franz Delitszch, Matthew Henry, Adam Clark and John Machen – to a name a few.

    So, Frank can go on how he loves and supports the murder of innocent children, and fences can be built, roadblocks can be formed, laws can be passed, etc. It all boils down to the same thing…we are less than human, something horrible, contemptible, ugly and vicious, if we think there is any reason at all to validate the bloody holocaust of the unborn.

    Frank, it's time to become a man and raise yourself up from the mental muck that you wallow in. Abortion is murder….period!

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:46 am
  68. Cassandra says:

    Yes I have images of Frank too as a spoiled little boy who doesn't know a thing about what he's talking about. And to say that you think abortion is okay? God have mercy on you! I also just thought of something:
    Anyone besides me notice that abortionists are 100% alive?
    And why do they support pro-"choice" (The appropriate word is murder but they use choice to make it look better) when their Mom's were pro-life?

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:52 am
  69. Frank says:

    Hey Eric! Time to start enforcing the 'no personal attacks' rule please! There are some serious temper tantrums occuring.

    I can disagree while remaining civil. Others apparently can not.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:55 am
  70. Kirk says:

    The typical email address at Safeway appears to be firstname.lastname@safeway.com. (However, sometimes presidents at companies have a different address since they don't want unsolicited email from the "rabble.") Therefore, it appears that the important email addresses are:
    Steven.Burd@safeway.com – CEO
    Robert.Edwards@safeway.com – CFO
    Larree.Renda@safeway.com – Chief Admin. Officer
    Brian.Dowling@safeway.com – Safeway's vp of public affairs)
    Winona.Redmon@safeway.com (Dominick's public affairs)
    terry.rogers@safeway.com, Chief Investigator

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:58 am
  71. Cassandra says:

    Frank if you were so civil you'd join a group that agrees with you. Just the fact that you're here shows us that what we're doing counts. And no matter what you say to me or anyone else that's what we think. Oh, yeah & if you expect your remarks to start making me cry because I'm just a teen think again. I'm saving every single one to show all my friends so they can see how horrible you guys really are over there & they won't get abortions.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:03 am
  72. Steve says:

    I'm not sure of the zoning ordinance but the fence was put up within the easement along the main roads. The drive in front of PP is private so I don't know if any easement exists. No matter, winter is coming and if it snows the fence will have to be moved back to allow for snow plowing. If anyone lives in the 9th ward you should contact your alderman Leroy Keith, I sent an email to all aldermen requesting they look into the Mayor's decision to issue a occupancy permit to PP and voice my disapproval of the Mayor's decision. Here is his reply…

    I would not normally respond to an e-mail from a resident of Aurora who does not live in the 9th Ward. Not because their voice is not important but because I believe that the matter should be discussed with the responsible Ward Alderman. However, because I have made it a point in my life to follow the laws that govern our behavior, and believe that everyone should be held accountable for violating those laws, I will offer these brief comments. First of all you have stated that you are not a lawyer, and neither am I. Of course Alderman Lawrence hangs awning for a living so I am not sure he would qualify as an attorney. What Alderman Lawrence and many others have failed to mention is that the area where PP has been built was a Planned Development District. That zoning basically becomes the controlling zoning ordinance and unlike an area that is annexed into the city under and normal B-2 zoning, which expires after 20 years, an area annexed into the City under a PDD never expires and runs with the land. As was noted in one of the attorney's report the PDD is the controlling zoning and in this case no Special Use Permit was required. Alderman Lawrence and the rest of the council agreed that we would follow the results of the independent investigations. We have two such investigations that were completed and both are virtually the same. Just because we might not agree with the results doesn't mean we can look somewhere else for another answer. Our Corporate Counsel (yet another attorney) has reviewed the matter of zoning and she has also opined that a Special Use permit was not required. We pay her good money to review the matters of the City and issue her opinion. Again, just because we don't agree with her doesn't mean she is wrong. Some people want to imply that there is some sort of conspiracy here but I beg anyone to give me reason to believe that. What would be the motivation? What would be the benefit? If anything, I would think that the easy decision would have been to keep them closed and just make them sue us, but that would not have been the right decision nor the fiscally responsible decision. Some residents of Aurora have way overstated the authority of the Mayor and the Council on this issue. That is a slippery slope attempt to make certain elected officials look bad. Most people are intelligent enough to recognize that and have dismissed those accusations. Those that have not are either blinded by their hearts or beliefs, or are a part of a small group of people with their own personal agenda.

    I can only ask that you try to put aside your beliefs and your natural instinct to listen to your heart and objectively look at all of the facts. Start with the 1973 Supreme Court ruling and end by knowing when an occupancy permit must be issued. Remember that PP has rights that are not only protected by the Supreme Court ruling but by our very own ordinances. The Mayor made a decision that he knew would not be popular with many people, but he also knew that it was a decision he was legally required to make. I am sure if you ask the two attorneys on the Council they will tell you the same thing. The question is, will you hear what they say.

    Leroy Keith
    Alderman, 9th Ward

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:04 am
  73. Cassandra says:

    Thank you for clearing that up however someone did state that we have a right to protest which we are being denied.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:09 am
  74. Frank says:

    "Frank if you were so civil you'd join a group that agrees with you."

    How silly.

    "Oh, yeah & if you expect your remarks to start making me cry because I'm just a teen think again."

    I have no idea who you are or what you are talking about. Sorry.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:12 am
  75. Patricia says:

    Kirk,

    The email addresses are a blessing!
    If we can get all of our friends and family members to email these people at Safeway, they just may start to take the boycott seriously.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:12 am
  76. Frank says:

    "Therefore, it appears that the important email addresses are…."

    Thank you.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:13 am
  77. Cassandra says:

    Thought I'd stated it. i'm a 13 yr. old from CA. I go to church & ever since I was 7 I've been disgusted by abortion. In fact I'm so digusted that while we lived in North Dakota I went on several Walks For Life. I won't state how much I raised becasue my Mom would kill me but it was a lot.
    in fact I'm so disgusted that I'm going to be a lawyer when I get older & bring down Roe V. Wade.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:16 am
  78. T says:

    Hey Cassandra–

    I'm a 37 y/o woman in Sacto and got just one thing to say to you:

    ROCK ON GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:19 am
  79. Cassandra says:

    T you rock too! In fact anyone who supports Pro-lifers rocks totally!

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:23 am
  80. Johnathan says:

    POST #68 "…and when their Mom's were pro-life?"

    Or when our mothers were ready for children perhaps.

    POST #67 "we are less than human, something horrible, contemptible, ugly and vicious, if we think there is any reason at all to validate the bloody holocaust of the unborn."

    On the contrary that is excatlly what makes us human. God gave us both the ability to create and destroy. And after every atrocity on this planet in recorded modern history (including the holocost) I haven't seen God intervene once….have you?

    Honestly it is unbelievable to me that anyone who protests at this clinic to save human lives and does not protest the end of all wars and human suffering is nothing but a hippocrit.

    ALL HUMAN LIVES ARE EQUAL

    God should be judging humans…not humans judging humans.

    Did Jesus or anyone else for that matter teach an eye for an eye?

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:56 am
  81. Eric Scheidler says:

    Frank—If calling us "misogynist fundies" without high school diplomas who are prone to violence isn't a personal attack, then neither is it a personal attack for one to describe the sort of person brought to mind by your tone as a spoiled brat, etc.

    That said, I consider both lines of comment inappropriate, and if they don't cease, I'll shut down comments on this post.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:08 am
  82. David R says:

    I would like to see a national boycott started against Domicks and Safeway, in response to their latest action. Think we (pro-life organizations,) need to move against these companies that support planned parenthood, and hit them in the pocketbook. That's one thing we CAN do.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:10 am
  83. Molly says:

    "Dominick's erects fence under cover of night"

    What are they afraid of? They're going to lose a lot of business this way…

    "I haven't seen God intervene once….have you?"

    If he did intervene than we would never know it because the bad thing that he stopped never happened.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:12 am
  84. Leviticus Jackson says:

    Is the rally still on for the 27th? With all these things going on it sure seems like there is no room in the inn for them. There is plenty of vacant land across NY street behind the bank.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:16 am
  85. Eric Scheidler says:

    Leviticus—See the note at the end of the post, above. No, the fence will not disrupt the October 27 Rally. There will be several different activities going on, none of which depends on using the vacant lot.

    The Rally will go forward as scheduled!

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:24 am
  86. Common Sense says:

    Alderman Leroy Keith pleads:

    "I can only ask that you try to put aside your beliefs and your natural instinct to listen to your heart and objectively look at all of the facts. Start with the 1973 Supreme Court ruling and end by knowing when an occupancy permit must be issued."

    I remind Alderman Keith that these are probably the same arguments used in the infamous Dred Scott case, whereby the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Negroes were not human enough worthy of Constitutional protections and should remain slaves. March 3, 2007 was the 150th Anniversary of the Dred Scott case.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2932.html

    Apparently the Supreme Court of 1857, then beholding to slave owners, "put aside" their beliefs, their "natural instincts" and proclaimed that slaves were not "citizens' and thereby not protected under the Constitution.

    The activist Supreme Court of l973, beholding to political correctness and feminist pressure, in effect, did the same thing. They proclaimed that the unborn are not human beings, not citizens and therefore not protected under the Constitution.

    Watch out for people who think that we can "put aside" our beliefs and our protests against a unjust law that violates the very foundations of our Constitution, forced upon us by a corrupted Supreme Court that defrauded future generations out of their "right to life."

    It took 186 years to rid this country of slavery. It may take the same amount of time to rid ourselves of legalized infanticide ! Onward to victory we march.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:26 am
  87. Patricia says:

    Everyone truly needs to ingnore the negative attacks by the few who try to draw attention to themselves.

    This blog is very valuable to the life of the innocent human beings that we are fighting for, and we dont want to see it ended because of a few.

    We need to support Eric and his work 100%, because he is doing Gods work.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:30 am
  88. Johnathan says:

    "This blog is very valuable to the life of the innocent human beings that we are fighting for, and we dont want to see it ended because of a few."

    Are there "guilty human beings"? Or non-innocent human beings?

    I thought Jesus taught us to love not fight…at yet you are "fighting" for these innocent human beings.

    Why not love PP and the people who work there? Isn't that what Jesus would do? What would Jesus do…

    I'm pretty sure during the age of his persucution by the Romans and the Jews Jesus did not start boycotting and picketing. No instead he stated that the way the Romans were living was wrong…he voiced his opinion to anyone who would listen…and next thing you know he had many followers of his great teachings.

    He voiced his opinion just as most of you are doing here in this forum. I hope and pray that you keep at just that…please let God judge those who you believe to be wrong and immoral. Then we can still all live and exist peacefully, right?

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
  89. Cassandra says:

    Johnathan, Jesus also encouraged his followers to sell their coats & buy a sword to defend themselves while they were preaching.
    Yes even though I hate to admit it we should love PP.
    And earlier you said we should be protesting all human slavery. One thing at a time! We'll bring down abortion then move onto other issues but we can't do everything at once!
    Oh yes & Frank all your comments do is inspire me more then ever to stop abortion. Thank you.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
  90. Dee says:

    It's so amusing that you all think a few people boycotting a major corporation will accomplish anything. I sincerely doubt they give a crap if you never shop there again. But, if it makes you feel warm, fuzzy and holy, go for it.
    Planned Parenthood is a fantastic organization and I support them fully. In fact, I'm donating 5 cents for every protester who shows up at one of their clinics in the next 40 days. They've already raised over $1000 thanks to you folks.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
  91. Frank says:

    "Oh yes & Frank all your comments do is inspire me more then ever to stop abortion. Thank you."

    You are welcome. I know many, many prochoice men and women who felt like you do when they were your age. With age and maturity viewpoints often change.

    (Although if you need me to inspire you, perhaps your dedication/resolve is already wavering. :) Don't obsess over me, focus on the issues.)

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
  92. Frank says:

    "It's so amusing that you all think a few people boycotting a major corporation will accomplish anything."

    No kidding. I boycotted Domino's for years and they're still slinging out the same crappy pizzas.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
  93. Cassandra says:

    Frank I know what I know. I also know that God wants me to bring down Roe v. Wade & I'm going to do it. People that change to pro-murder view points area actually quite immature I'm sorry to say. I know little kids that are more mature.
    PS Dee. It's not just a few people. Over here in CA I'm getting a lot of people involved. Anyone notice what's been happening to Ford? They supported the wrong view point & now they're getting bushwacked. I dread to think what will happen to Safeway a food company.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
  94. Cassandra says:

    "(Although if you need me to inspire you, perhaps your dedication/resolve is already wavering. Don't obsess over me, focus on the issues.)"

    No I'm already inspired; you just inspired me more.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
  95. Kirk says:

    Jonathan,
    Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
    If hope that I am not misrepresenting your comments by summarizing that you are suggesting activities should be confined to places such as this website rather than protests at PP. You suggest that this is the way Jesus preached. What you suggest, however, is that we stay here and merely "preach to the choir." The message would never reach those who might go to PP for its "services." Jesus, contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, went from town to town preaching (often to unreceptive audiences). Jesus wasn't always passive. When he saw wrongs, he consistently spoke out against them. Jesus in the Temple was far from being passive.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
  96. Frank says:

    "People that change to pro-murder view points area actually quite immature I'm sorry to say."

    If you make it through high school, if (not when) you make it through a 4 year college, and if you get into law school, please write in your exam book that abortion is murder. Be prepared to receive an "F".

    "Anyone notice what's been happening to Ford? They supported the wrong view point & now they're getting bushwacked."

    That is untrue. Other companies are currently making better quality vehicles. As a GM owner, I know this. If you are talking about the attempted American Family Assn. proposed boycott against gays and Ford, all studies show that it has failed miserably. It has not hurt their business at all. Please try again.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
  97. Frank says:

    "No I'm already inspired; you just inspired me more."

    Cool. Take your best shot. Maybe you'll do better than the generations of antichoicers who have tried (and failed) before you.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
  98. Cassandra says:

    This is one thing I really hate:
    Pastors that bend head over heels to not offend anyone. They don't say anything about abortion:
    If they say it's wrong they offend Planned Parenthood.
    If they say it's right they offend us. So they just don't talk about it. I on the other hand have a habit of offending people simply because I'm so outspoken (I think it's my Irish Swiss-German heritage). I think I've trained my brother that way too (The real daredevilish one).

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
  99. Kirk says:

    "It's so amusing that you all think a few people boycotting a major corporation will accomplish anything."

    I used to work for a Chicago-based corporation that was much bigger than Safeway. If our president got JUST ONE complaint about any subject (believe it or not, the switchboard would put calls through to him and he accepted the calls. The trick for callers was to be able to call when he was in the office, since he was usually either out or in meetings), he did react. He would immediately call my boss and would be very irate that we had a complaint (and then, of course, my boss would call me). Even if we had been doing everything perfectly and the complainer was totally wrong, we ALWAYS bent over backward to satisfy the complainer. I suspect that is the same thing at most corporations.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
  100. Cassandra says:

    I'm prepared to recieve an F. And Ford's sales have dropped 21% last month. It's not anti-choice it's anti-murder & yes I'm going to do better. I'll bring down Roe v. Wade. Unlike other lawyers I'm true to my own sense of right & wrong & I'm not gonna be brainwashed. If your wrong I'm fighting you If your right I'm fighting for you. There is simply no room in my brain for "maybe the pro-choicers (murder) are right." Now if you'll excuse me I wanna try singing Stuck while upside down on a swing. My brother's gonna do A New World. And then we'll have ourselves a nice little Aurora PP protest with almost all 8 of my siblings.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
  101. Meagan says:

    Frank,
    It may be better in some cases to ignore oppostion, due to petty attacks and other such instances. However, know that it is only our opionions that differ. I apologize to you if anyone has previously acted in a way that was not loving or thoughtful to you. If we act in hate, or anger to even those who oopose us, then do we really have respect for life, for ALL LIFE? Feel free to openly discuss your views with me, since you are so eager to do so. I am glad you have such passion for something, even if sadly it is for something I do not.
    Sincerely,
    Meagan

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
  102. Erin says:

    Cassandra–

    I'm very proud of you and your resolve. I was a history major, with an emphasis in US and Women's history, and I did defend the pro-life viewpoint vocally in a number of seminar classes in which participation affected up to 50% of my grade. In my undergrad, I graduated with a 3.98, with a perfect 4.0 in two minors and my major. In grad-school, I graduated with a perfect 4.0 across the board. Defending what is right, when it is done intelligently and without ridicule, should never result in a Failing grade. Do not be discouraged. Contrary to what some may say, we are intelligent, informed, educated women. And we are pro-life.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
  103. Greg Guest says:

    We were at PP today. Many supporters and many opponents. The police were everywhere. They were very respective of our protest. They were truly there for safety. The fence if nothing else was a stunning backdrop, or red flag to bring attention to the situation. I'm sure many pro-abort blogs will flash the pictures and speak of our "resolve". The fence rekindled our resolve.

    October 13th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
  104. Dee says:

    Kirk, keep your little fantasy that a corporation like Safeway will go out of business (or even change a minor policy) because a handful of people no longer shop there.

    Cassandra, you keep your fantasy that you will someday overturn Roe v. Wade.

    I'll live in the real world, thanks, where legal abortion is here to stay.

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
  105. Elizabeth says:

    Greg-was there a protest today? If I had known I would have shown up, like I do at every protest and as often as I can to pray.

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
  106. Johnathan says:

    "If we act in hate, or anger to even those who oopose us, then do we really have respect for life, for ALL LIFE?"

    Finally someone else who shares my sentiments and have heard my earlier laments…

    Everytime I have to read a post that uses the word "fighting" all I can think of is the Crusades. When I have to see pictures on this website and see people holding flags resembling those held by the Knights Templars I think why?

    Why fight when you can love?

    Why feel anger when you can be at peace?

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
  107. Elizabeth says:

    Dee-

    Yeah that "real world" where blacks were allowed to be enslaved and segregated and babies are murdered by their mothers while still forming in their bodies. How great that "real world" seems to be that you seem to be so supportive of. Maybe someday they'll treat you like 3/5 of a human being or better yet maybe somebody will just call u a "blob of tissue." Maybe then you'll care about the human race. Maybe not. I'll pray for you.

    Elizabeth

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
  108. Frank says:

    "Yeah that "real world" where blacks were allowed to be enslaved and segregated and babies are murdered by their mothers while still forming in their bodies. How great that "real world" seems to be that you seem to be so supportive of. Maybe someday they'll treat you like 3/5 of a human being or better yet maybe somebody will just call u a "blob of tissue." Maybe then you'll care about the human race. Maybe not. I'll pray for you."

    Here's a tissue…..

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
  109. Elizabeth says:

    Johnathon-

    I don't know if you are aware or have even been to any of the Aurora PP protests, but all of them are peaceful. No violence, just prayer and sign holding. I respect all people's opinions not just my own. I do not hate people who are for abortion, or even have anger for them. I just pray that there hearts will one day see what I already know.

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
  110. Elizabeth says:

    Don't worry, Frank. I don't need a tissue. I never had an abortion or enslaved people, so I don't have anything to feel guilty or even cry over. You may want to offer some to those young girls who are killing their babies though. They'll need them more than I will.

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
  111. Frank says:

    "You may want to offer some to those young girls who are killing their babies though. They'll need them more than I will."

    Despite your poorly disguised desire that women suffer, most women who terminate pregnancies have little or no remorse. Just relief. Those who have emotional problems later almost always had them before the pregnancy. And they should get counseling for their underlying issues.

    And if you know someone who is killing 'babies' please get off the computer and call the police. Killing babies is illegal.

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
  112. Johnathan says:

    "I do not hate people who are for abortion, or even have anger for them. I just pray that there hearts will one day see what I already know."

    Another great post…thank you Elizabeth.

    I start to feel defensive when I read posts regarding boycott this store and boycott that business. I get defensive for the people who want nothing to do with this and are being needlessly affected by it. Although I do not believe that any of the larger companies can be shut down, in the hypothetical case that they did imagine the innocent people who are being affected by this…

    Again who hear can call themselves a Christian and subscribe to the thought of, "an eye for an eye"?

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
  113. Elizabeth says:

    Frank, I have no disguised desire for women to suffer. I don't want anyone to suffer, but I know that they will. And just how do YOU know that "most women" don't suffer or have remorse for an abortion? Do you know "most women" or are you just lumping all women together? Better yet do you even know what an abortion is like for a woman? Or maybe you just know every woman who has ever had an abortion and can speak first-hand for all of them. Well in that case, I applaud you cause I'm sure you're a pretty popular guy.

    Elizabeth

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
  114. Ocean says:

    "Common Sense says: Guess who uttered these words: "Those who have no love for children are swine, stocks, and logs unworthy of being called men or women."
    Do you think this was the mad drivelings of some medieval Pope? No, it was Martin Luther, founder of the Reformation. "

    It's odd how Mr. Luther's other opinion about women, which is far less flattering to him, always manages to be mysteriously omitted:

    "If a woman grows weary from child bearing and at last dies, it matters not. Let her die from bearing, she is there to do it. "

    A little honesty from the prolife side would be appreciated, but at this point, I know better than to hope for it.

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
  115. Ocean says:

    "Despite your poorly disguised desire that women suffer, most women who terminate pregnancies have little or no remorse. Just relief. Those who have emotional problems later almost always had them before the pregnancy. And they should get counseling for their underlying issues."
    Frank

    Frank, I agree. I know several women who decided to get an abortion in the past. They don't have any psychological problems or deep feelings of guilt as a result. While they regretted the fact that their BC failed, which resulted in an unwanted pregnancy, they were all relieved that the option of a safe, legal abortion was available to them.

    I'm glad that this fence went up to protect the women who go to PP. They deserve and need protection from the prolifers that claim to have their best interests at heart, but really do not. If they truly wanted "counsel" from prolifers, they'd seek it out for themselves.

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
  116. Ocean says:

    "Don't worry, Frank. I don't need a tissue. I never had an abortion or enslaved people, so I don't have anything to feel guilty or even cry over. You may want to offer some to those young girls who are killing their babies though. They'll need them more than I will."
    -Elizabeth

    Obviously, the law disagrees with you and the prolife movement on the "killing their babies" definition of abortion. I'll feel a lot safer going to PP now that this fence is there to protect us from the unwanted attentions and so-called prayers from prolifers. And I heartily commend Dominick's for taking this courageous step.

    October 13th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
  117. Molly says:

    "The law" has disagreed with a lot of things. At one point, it disagreed with many people's view that slavery was immoral.

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
  118. Ocean says:

    "Dee – Yeah that "real world" where blacks were allowed to be enslaved and segregated and babies are murdered by their mothers while still forming in their bodies."
    -Elizabeth

    Elizabeth, you may be completely unaware of this, but many of the slavemasters in the South before and during the Civil War were CHRISTIANS.

    But to get back to the topic, I can't thank Dominick's enough for putting this fence up for us. Now women who want contraception to avoid the burdens of unwanted pregnancy, and an abortion in the event our BC fails will be able to get those services safely, without dealing with the annoying and threatening behavior of prolife demonstrators. I'm referring all my prochoice friends to shop there.

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
  119. Elizabeth says:

    Ocean-

    Obviously the law doesn't protect our right to free speech even though it protects women's rights to kill their babies. Seems a little backwards to me. Those women don't need protection from pro-lifers. There has not been one incident of pro-life people being aggressive towards women going into this clinic. We just sit there and pray. We don't harrass them. They put the fence up there because they don't like our message. Free speech only applies when you agree with Planned Parenthood I guess. How's that for "law." Can't wait to see how you all feel when you have something to say about something you don't agree with and the "law" says you can't. You're all for our speech being silenced, but if it were your's, then there's a problem. Sounds like some hypocrisy to me.

    Elizabeth

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
  120. Jane Celeste says:

    Was there a protest today? If I had known I would have shown up, like I do at every protest and as often as I can to pray.

    Hi Elizabeth- I can't speak for all at PP today- but there were quite a few of us gathered to pray the Rosary in honor of the 90th Anniversary of Fatima and the Miracle of the Sun. This is being celebrated today throughout the world- people everywhere were gathering on Public Squares at 12 Noon united in Prayer for Conversion.

    A Blessing though for sure was the empty PP parking lot! By God's Grace- what is always a busy day (Saturday) at abortion clinics- today was quiet. A lot of cars in the employee lot so I can only assume through the fruitful prayers of many- these young decided to seek alternative care…..our hope & prayer indeed!

    Jane

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
  121. Elizabeth says:

    Ocean- I am aware of that. But I wasn't a slave owner and I am a christian so what is your point? A lot of people used to think slavery was okay. Maybe some still do. A lot of people think abortion is okay. I don't happen to be one of them.

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
  122. Renee says:

    The law has allowed many injustices to be perpetrated against those without any politcal power. It takes counter-culturally minded people to stand up and speak for those who can not speak for themselves.

    A fence is not going to stop anyone from continuing to stand up for life. Rude comments are not going to stop anyone from continuing to stand up for life. Name calling certainly won't stop anyone from standing up for life.

    It took over 200 years, from the time the first settlers arrived until the Emancipation Proclimation, for slavery to become illegal in this country. Abortion has only been legal for 34 years. Our generation may not see justice accomplished by changing of the law. Future generations will.

    But every time one person chooses to give life instead of death, our efforts are worth it. Every time one woman finds the help she needs to bring her baby to life, and every time a scared and worried woman is given the support and care she needs to feel safe in her pregnancy, our efforts are worth it.

    Legal or illegal, there will always be women who feel their only choice is abortion. And there will always be others to try to help them see they need not be forced to abort by circumstances. Help is available and will be given. That is our message. We are here to help. We will do whatever we can to assist you and help you choose life. We care about you and your baby. We care about your life and the life of your baby. We are sort of like the Underground Railroad of the modern times.

    We have nothing monetary to gain here. We have nothing material to profit from our stand (unlike the abortion industry, I might add).

    So those commenters here that feel the need to demonize us, just know you have no impact on us. We are committed to the pro-life cause, not for our own benefit, but for the benefit of others, and that can not be crushed by ugly words.

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
  123. Pastor Pamela Kacys says:

    Wow!! With all of the trouble Dominicks has experienced over the past few years with store closings..etc….I sure don't understand why Dominicks would want to alienate consumers. I will be giving back my "fresh values" card but I intend to keep my "Godly values". Dominicks no longer has to worry about me "tresspassing" on their property. My mistake!!

    Eric, we are praying for you and we honor the stand you have taken. May the good who sees hearts reward you and your family.

    In Christ,

    Pastor Pam Kacys (former Dominicks customer also)
    Christian Fellowship Church
    4220 W. 59th Street
    Chicago, Illinois

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
  124. Johnathan says:

    "So those commenters here that feel the need to demonize us, just know you have no impact on us. We are committed to the pro-life cause, not for our own benefit, but for the benefit of others, and that can not be crushed by ugly words."

    Renee…Are you really the speaker for FAPP?

    October 13th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
  125. Karen says:

    Father Corapi, one of the most,if not the most fantastic speakers of our time, speaks about the topic of sin. He quotes the Catholic Catechism as follows:
    "Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins commited by others when we coorperate in them:
    -by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
    -by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
    -BY NOT DISCLOSING OR NOT HINDERING THEM WHEN WE HAVE AN OBIGATION TO DO SO;
    -by protecting evil-doers."

    Abortion(murder of the innocent in the womb) is a "sin that cries to heaven." Gen 4:10 The catechism says we have a moral obligation to speak out against it, not to be afraid of offending anyone who supports it and show the love of God to them, and the love God has for THEM. Peace.

    October 13th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
  126. Charles says:

    From Wikipedia:

    In 1998, the chain's then 116 stores were acquired by Safeway Inc. Safeway soon began to push Safeway private-label products and eliminated local known brands. According to Jim Hertel of grocery consultancy Willard Bishop Consulting Ltd., "Dominick’s focused on purchasing produce and meat on quality first, price second. Safeway did just the opposite."[4] Dominick's lost market share and profits following the Safeway takeover. Between 2002 and 2007, Dominick's market share in the Chicago region declined from 24.4 percent to 14.5 percent. Jewel-Osco's 40.5 percent is the market's leader.[5] During labor negotiations in 2003, Safeway unsuccessfully attempted to sell Dominick's,[6] and reported Dominick's financial information as a discontinued operation,[7] but, more recently, Safeway announced that it was retaining the chain.[8]

    After closing more than 20 stores since its acquisition, Safeway announced in February 2007 that it would close another 14 stores in the Chicago area and convert 20 existing stores to the lifestyle format.[9] After the store closings, Dominick's operates 83 locations.

    I believe the takeaway from this will be: Does Dominick's want to add another store closing to their list? It' clear, the Aurora community is not happy with this store's presence – after this latest stunt. It's doubtful that people will go out of their way to shop at a supermarket, but those in the local community will certainly avoid one; especially when their actions disagree with the will of the local community.

    October 13th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
  127. Ocean says:

    Cassandra says: "Yes I have images of Frank too as a spoiled little boy who doesn't know a thing about what he's talking about. "

    Interesting that the rules state: any views expressed on this blog are required to be polite and non-attacking. The above post certainly looks like attack language to me. Just making an observation.

    October 13th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
  128. Samantha says:

    Wow!! With all of the trouble Dominicks has experienced over the past few years with store closings..etc….I sure don't understand why Dominicks would want to alienate consumers. I will be giving back my "fresh values" card but I intend to keep my "Godly values". Dominicks no longer has to worry about me "tresspassing" on their property. My mistake!!

    By allowing protestors on their property, Dominicks was alienating pro-choice customers. I guess they would rather have pro-choice shoppers than pro life ones.

    October 13th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
  129. Dolores says:

    J.M.J.

    Leviticus Jackson aka Steve Trombley

    Who are you kidding?…you don't sound pro-life

    First, you said you didn't like the TRUTH pictures, aborted baby/Face the Truth pictures and you don't want them used at the rally?….. (on the previous blog)

    Now you say that we should have our rallys in the field behind the bank?….

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
  130. Johnathan says:

    I find it interesting to read some of the featured articles on this website using terms such as…

    "abortion fortress" and "prayer warrior"

    So every protest that FAPP does has been peacefull correct…than if they are promoters of peace and the saving of innocent lives…I'm not sure I fully understand the use of war terminology. Are these words good representation of FAPP? FORTRESS and WARRIOR…

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
  131. Renee says:

    Beause this is SPIRITUAL warfare. We do not fight flesh and blood but principalities and powers. It is a war!

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
  132. Johnathan says:

    Renee,

    Would Jesus promote war…of any kind?

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
  133. Frank says:

    "Would Jesus promote war…of any kind?"

    Of course not. But jesus and many of his professed followers are polar opposites.

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
  134. Paul2 says:

    What an ugly eyesore that fence is. It actually looks quite fitting next door door to that other ugly eyesore known as PP.

    I will no longer be shopping at Dominicks and will encourage other to quit shopping there too.

    How can any woman vonuntarily lye down on the gurnee and lift thier knees to submit themselves to the murder of the blessing they carry in thier womb?

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
  135. Paul2 says:

    Frank and Johnathan. You obviously do not know Jesus. He said it would be better that you have millstone tied around your neck and be cast to the bottom of the sea then to hurt one of his little ones.

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
  136. Frank says:

    "Frank and Johnathan. You obviously do not know Jesus. He said it would be better that you have millstone tied around your neck and be cast to the bottom of the sea then to hurt one of his little ones."

    Good thing the fetus belongs to the woman and not to jesus. When jesus gets pregnant, he can choose.

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
  137. Kirk says:

    "Are these words good representation of FAPP? FORTRESS and WARRIOR"

    Yes.

    "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter againster her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's enemies will be those of his household." Matthew, 10:34-36

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
  138. Renee says:

    I apologize, Jonathan, I can't take the time right now to address spiritual warfare and the role of Jesus in the fight against evil. I am making dinner for my family, and this could take awhile.

    I offer you no disrespect, but this line of questioning is taking us way off the track of the original post, and if you Google "spiritual warfare", you can get some good information there.

    Have a nice evening.

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
  139. Meagan says:

    Johnathan,

    Jesus does promote war. A peaceful war. War terminology on this site is used correctly, describing what He called has called us to do. He has called us to be prayer warriors, using our sheild of faith and sword of truth. This is not a physical war, where we are called to injure one another with violence or words.We are called to fight with the truth, and with our faith and most importantly with love. These are our "weapons" or if you prefer to call them, our gifts. If we know it or not we are constantly in a battle between light and darkness. Our job is to do the work of the Father in a peaceful, loving manner. That is where you are possibly having difficulty, seeing how a war should be peaceful as we are called to do. If it disheartens you to use these words, then dont. Do as you are called to by God, for He is the one whose hands your spirit is in, not mans. Hope that helps. God Bless
    Sincerely,
    Meagan

    October 13th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
  140. Renee says:

    Frank,

    I don't know what injury you suffered to cause you such animosity against Jesus, but rest assured He loves you. I am sorry if I caused you any pain. I apologize if I was ill-tempered with you. I do let my temper get away from me at times.

    I wish you peace, and all good.

    October 13th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
  141. Karen Nickels says:

    While the fence around the vacant lot is an unfortunate development, pro-lifers can take comfort in the knowledge that God doesn't require the cooperation of Safeway in order to accomplish His purposes. In fact, if pro-lifers cannot use the lot, God's action will be all the more evident when Planned Parenthood closes. It will then be obvious that GOD'S power closed down PP, not OUR work. It is appropriate that we encourage Safeway to rethink their position. But we must continue to keep our focus on a prayerful, loving witness outside PP.

    October 13th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
  142. Frank says:

    "I don't know what injury you suffered to cause you such animosity against Jesus".

    No animosity here, just pointing out that 'he' (real or imaginary) has no vote in a woman's reproductive choices. Neither do you, unless you are the pregnant one.

    And, (this is sure to disappoint you), I've suffered no injury either.

    What have women done to you to cause you to regard them so poorly and with such evil intent?

    "I wish you peace, and all good."

    Hmmmm, after reading your other comments, I doubt the sincerity of that.

    Inflicting your particular brand of religion on others who may or may not share your beliefs is as bad as attempting to inflict your moral beliefs on pregnant women. Both are wrong.

    October 13th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
  143. Kirk says:

    I got a "mailer-daemon" for the Winona Redmon address that I supplied earlier. At this point, it appears that all the other Safeway emails are good.

    October 13th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
  144. Renee says:

    I do mean I wish you peace and all good. I also apologized for the tone of my previous comments, if they caused you offense.

    I harbor no ill will towards women, and if you read through these threads and my other comments, you'll see that.

    And pardon me if you think I am forcing my religion on you, but you did come to this site, one that has the pro- life beliefs clearly stated as it's purpose.

    I take no offense at you attempting to inflict your moral beliefs on me. Jesus is real, and His love is there for you whether you believe it or not.

    Again, I wish you peace, and all good.

    October 13th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
  145. Renee says:

    Oh, and Frank, I am a woman, and fully believe in the dignity and power of women. I don't like to see them exploited for profit, and I don't like them used as sexual objects. You really should take the time and read some of the older comments and see that there are many women here who are fignting for women's rights for informed consent, as well as real health care, and support and caring through the difficulties experience in an unplanned or crisis pregnancy.

    October 13th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
  146. Greg Guest says:

    Samantha said:
    "…By allowing protestors on their property, Dominicks was alienating pro-choice customers. I guess they would rather have pro-choice shoppers than pro life ones."

    Actually, most merchants don't advertise their personal views about the issue. They would like pro-choice, pro-life, and even space aliens to shop at their businesses. That's why its surprising they would show any kind of stand at all.
    As far as liability, the fence doesn't free them from any liability at all. The strip of road between the lot an PP is split between them. As a matter of fact, by limiting the area that counselors can stand in, and they will continue to be there, they may have inadvertantly increased their risk.

    October 13th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
  147. Karen says:

    Frank,

    I should have been more charitable with my words. I am sorry they were so harsh. Jesus who loves you, said, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." Jeremiah 1:5. He is a merciful God, he said,"Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind , be it of man or angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity." God is merciful, but He is also a just God. Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.(Cf.Mt 25:31-46) To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."(catholic catechism) That is why I said, "Repent my friend…" I wish for you to come to know Jesus, your creator, and open your eyes to the truth, that all life is sacred and nothing justifies the killing of an innocent "little one" in the womb. Peace be with you.

    Karen

    October 13th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
  148. Patricia says:

    Dee says: "Kirk, keep your little fantasy that a corporation like Safeway will go out of business (or even change a minor policy) because a handful of people no longer shop there.
    Cassandra, you keep your fantasy that you will someday overturn Roe v. Wade.
    I'll live in the real world, thanks, where legal abortion is here to stay."

    Dee, Regarding your above quote, you may think we are just a handful of people, but you may have to think again!
    There have been well over a thousand at the pro life rallies, there were at least 700 young people at the youth rally (these are the youth who are wise to planned parenthood, and do not want to be targeted by them}, for every person attending a rally there are hundreds of thousands praying along with them.
    Add all these numbers up, throw in family members, and friends who will support a boycott of Dominicks.
    I would call this more than a handful.

    It may be hard for pro choice people to believe, but there are many, many people who have morals and consider abortion the murder that it truly is. There are compassionate people who shutter at the thought of a tiny baby being ripped apart in the place where they should be the most safe, in their mothers womb.

    Norma McCorvey (Jane Roe of Roe V Wade) who was the main focue of this evil law, herself is now pro life, and has rallied against abortion. She realized what an atrocity this law is, not only to the unborn baby who is being tortured and murdered, but also to all females who are duped into believing this is a right or choice.
    Abortion is degrading to all females, and strips them of all self respect.

    So, if Jane Roe herself is trying to get Roe V Wade reversed, yes, there is a huge possiblity that this law will be reversed.

    In the end good will always overcome evil.

    October 13th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
  149. Sally says:

    Ouch! Guess I spoke too soon on keeping Dominicks out of any boycott. Amazing how the deeds planned and done in darkness come into the light. I say full speed ahead on a NATIONWIDE BOYCOTT OF SAFEWAY AND DOMINICKS. The sheer logic that more live people (not brutally murdered) consume more of their products eludes them because the Big Bad PP wolf is breathing down their cowardly necks just like the spineless mayor and most council members. I'm praying that our awesome, all knowing, all powerful and all loving God will close this killing factory down in whatever God chooses. There are many distractions to our mission to pray, fast, trust, and peacefully act to defend women and their children in danger. Let's keep our focus on them and less on those determined to take us off the battlefield for life.

    October 13th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
  150. Ocean says:

    Renee Says:
    "Oh, and Frank, I am a woman, and fully believe in the dignity and power of women. I don't like to see them exploited for profit, and I don't like them used as sexual objects."

    Great! I fully believe in the dignity and power of women too. Given the above, you should not mind giving women the power to decide for OURSELVES whether or not we WANT to get and/or stay pregnant. Which means admitting that we have the right to use contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy, and if a woman decides it is necessary for her, the right to safe, legal abortion if her contraceptive method fails.

    It boils down to this; you stay out of MY sexual and reproductive choices and I'll stay out of yours. Fair enough?

    October 13th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
  151. Brian says:

    Jonathan said: "I thought Jesus taught us to love not fight…at yet you are "fighting" for these innocent human beings."

    Jesus also said that "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword." Now, that verse is problematic but I've always thought that it meant that Jesus thought that fighting injustice was just. Fighting (through non-violent means) the injustice of the abortion mill is just. Fighting in this sense means protest, political pressure, and presence.

    Don't feed the trolls (and Jonathan isn't the troll I'm thinking of).

    October 13th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
  152. Paul2 says:

    Frank,

    I will only respond to loosley spoken lies once. This is a fantastic blog and will continue to be cause I will be skipping your future posts. I blog for honest, rational discussion.

    You post outright lies.. For example you posted that a baby in a pregnant mother is just a blob in the womb. You may be living in your reality of some kind, but everybody else knows she/he is scientifically proven to be a life with ears, eyes,nose, mouth, toes, a beating heart and a brain. You waste the time of women and everyone else who would give credence to your posts.

    October 13th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
  153. Frank says:

    "You post outright lies.. For example you posted that a baby in a pregnant mother is just a blob in the womb."

    Since I did not post that, you are the liar.

    October 13th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
  154. Paul2 says:

    And back to the main purpose of this post. Please, besides turning in your fresh values cards. Let corporate know. Thanks again Kirk for those addresses

    Steven.Burd@safeway.com – CEO
    Robert.Edwards@safeway.com – CFO
    Larree.Renda@safeway.com – Chief Admin. Officer
    Brian.Dowling@safeway.com – Safeway's vp of public affairs)
    Winona.Redmon@safeway.com (Dominick's public affairs)
    terry.rogers@safeway.com, Chief Investigator

    October 13th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
  155. Karen says:

    Ocean, I have a question for you. Do you believe the scientific proven truth that a fetus is a human being growing from the moment of conception, with its own DNA and blood system?

    Karen

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
  156. Kirk says:

    "'You post outright lies.. For example you posted that a baby in a pregnant mother is just a blob in the womb.'"
    Since I did not post that, you are the liar."
    Post 11. "11. Frank says:…MY jesus loves abortion and born women and doesn't care that much about unborn blobs."

    Post 47. Frank says:"… Comparing the abortion of blobs to the murder of the Nazis' born, living victims is reprehensible. IMO."

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
  157. Frank says:

    "Ocean, I have a question for you. Do you believe the scientific proven truth that a fetus is a human being growing from the moment of conception, with its own DNA and blood system?"

    Since that is your opinion and NOT 'scientific proven truth' (whatever that is supposed to mean), your question is meaningless.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
  158. Frank says:

    "'You post outright lies.. For example you posted that a baby in a pregnant mother is just a blob in the womb.'"
    Since I did not post that, you are the liar."
    Post 11. "11. Frank says:…MY jesus loves abortion and born women and doesn't care that much about unborn blobs."

    Post 47. Frank says:"… Comparing the abortion of blobs to the murder of the Nazis' born, living victims is reprehensible. IMO."

    Thanks for proving my point. I didn't say what Paul2 claimed. Good job.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
  159. Karen says:

    Frank, You must have taken biology at some time in your education. Then you should know the facts of the development of a human fetus in the womb, right?

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
  160. Kristine says:

    While it is disappointing Safeway put up a fence, I would just like to say how I feel. I am thankful they have let us use their property for past events and I don't feel they "are against us". I think that they are a buisness and they are making a move that they feel is good for their buisness. I am not angry at them, I will not boycott them, nor will I throw my card at them. What I WILL do is continue to go out to PP and pray. Ephesians6:12 "We wrestle not against flesh and blood. (Safeway, The Mayor, Steve Trombley etc)but agaisnt the spiritual forces of evil. For those from PP on this site leaving comments I once had a hardned heart toward abortion also, but God touched my heart and changed my thoughts and beliefs. You think it's ALL about the baby but it's not. The babies, every one of them are made whole in heaven. It is the broken woman left here that God cares about. He wants to touch their broken hearts and make them whole again.
    Peace to everyone !

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
  161. Elizabeth says:

    Ocean- if you believe a woman should choose for herself whether or not she wants to be pregnant…then MAYBE..just maybe..she should choose NOT to have sex if she doesn't want to get pregnant. But I guess it is too much to hope for people to have some conviction and not have sex if they don't want a baby. But why should they? They can just have the baby suctioned out of their body if they get pregnant. Maybe women should grow up and take some personal responisibility and realize that being able to have a child is a gift, not a choice.

    Elizabeth

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
  162. Sally says:

    I need to apologize to the Mayor and the council members for my uncharitable remarks on this blog. I am sorry. It isn't my life that depends on your decisions but so many others most of whom cannot speak for themselves. It is disheartening to see elected officials choose the path of least resistance and forsake their vow to uphold the common good and clear the way for so many Aurora children to die a horrific unnecessary death and their mothers to be saddled with the lifelong pain of having been exploited by the lies of a misguided and truly evil organization (Planned Parenthood). I don't know what it will take for you to reconsider your decision but we are praying for you. Unlike the children, you can speak and ask questions and seek the truth. Unlike the mothers who are deceived by the falsehoods of PP, we have been honest with you so you would know the ramifications, spiritually, physically, emotionally, mentally, socially and financially of granting occupancy to this facility. As was said in the last council meeting, spiritually, this is objectively a matter of mortal sin which places one's soul in grave danger. May God give you the time you need and the grace to turn the corner, even for only your own sake, and do the right thing as duty calls you to do… to truly serve the best interests of the people of Aurora, born and pre-born.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
  163. Jason says:

    If you guys value and care about the well being of these women as you claim, what do you think of this article that recently appeared in the Chicago tribune?

    Basically, scientific studies have demonstrated abortion rates remain the same whether abortion is illegal or not. All making it illegal does is move it underground at great, great danger to the women who seek out abortions. When abortion is illegal, doctors don't preform abortions, morons with no or very minimal medical training do.

    In fact, planned parenthood's presence actually LOWERS abortion rates via sex education and distribution of birth control at an affordable rate.

    If you got you got your wish, and abortion was made illegal, you would insure not only the demise of the fetuses, but of the women too.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
  164. Leviticus Jackson says:

    Delores,

    Dolores says: J.M.J.
    Leviticus Jackson aka Steve Trombley
    Who are you kidding?…you don't sound pro-life
    First, you said you didn't like the TRUTH pictures, aborted baby/Face the Truth pictures and you don't want them used at the rally?….. (on the previous blog)
    Now you say that we should have our rallys in the field behind the bank?….

    Where else are you going to find the room? I don't understand how you can have shuttle busses coming to a lot that nobody can access. There is plenty of land by the bank near the gun shop. Your group tried marching around the block and that really didn't work out. You are right I hate those signs but it seems the majority of you do like those signs. We can argue about that all night long. A funny thing I noticed today was that every since PP opened Dominicks lot has been packed but the store was empty. You could shoot a cannon off and not hit anybody. The lot was always full because of the protestors parked their cars. The same Dominicks that gave presents to your baby showers. Today the shop was packed more than I have seen in months. Also all the talk about boycotting Dominicks doesn't help the cause when I see people from Chicago and Schaumburg are turing in their fresh values card. Sure we are all from Aurora! Dominicks corporate doesn't want the liability of people on their land (which is their right to do) and your group throws a fit. The mgr at that store is a good man and a church going man but this wasn't his call. I certainly hope you understand that.

    October 13th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
  165. Mary says:

    Dear Mr Leviticus,
    What Dominick'd were you at?! The lot of the one at Eola and New York in Aurora just down from the PP on an angle from Blockbuster and WSBank was only 1/3full AT BEST—I WAS THERE.

    Best regards

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
  166. Leviticus Jackson says:

    Mary,
    Before the fence went up I could walk in there and never have to wait in line. Today lines were out the door in the late afternoon. Most of the talk in the lines was about the fence. The vibe I got was it brought many people back. After all people going to shop for groceries really don't have to be visually assaulted with the dead baby photos. You have every right to protest but keep it clean.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
  167. Greg Guest says:

    Why do they bother you, Leviticus? It shows the truth. If the walls of PP were curtains of a movie theatre and could be raised THAT is what you would see–dead torn apart babies. Did you know that the staff there is required to re-peice the torn apart baby after they suck/cut him/her out of the mother to make sure they have all the parts. They wouldn't want to leave anything behind—complications you know. So…why does the truth bother you Leviticus? Perharps shopping at night—if the horrendous signs were up until lets say 11PM or so. Oh I forgot. Dominick's closes at night. So sorry for the inconvenience.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
  168. Patricia says:

    Jason,

    Please take the time to read these statistics.
    This study which takes in the several yrs before Roe V wade until approx. 1990.
    These statistics shows the very negative effects this evil law has brought about.
    Take special note of the how the teen abortion rate was affected.
    Sad but true statistics.

    Abortion affects Children

    The legalization of abortion doesn't just affect the women who have abortions and the fetuses aborted. Abortion affects every one of us, alive with the right to life. In the late 1960s and early 1970s abortion rights supporters promised that through the legalization of abortion society would be improved. Fewer teenagers would become pregnant. Child abuse would drop. Children would only live in homes that could support them. Children would live in more loving homes and crime rates would drop. Yet, either because of or coincidentally with Roe vs. Wade, history has shown the opposite. Abortion has opened up a "back way out:" an excuse to have unsafe sex, and an excuse for violent murder. Our society, and the children who have grown up in the abortion-filled world, have been negatively affected.

    Abortion hasn't helped prevent crime against children. Since abortion was legalized in 1973, the number of reported cases of child abuse has increased by 1,497%, from 167,000 in 1973 to 2.5 million in 1991.
    "… elective abortion is an important cause of child abuse… Recent evidence indicates many women harbour strong guilt feelings long after their abortions. Guilt is one important cause of child battering and infanticide. Abortion lowers women's self-esteem and there are studies reporting a major loss of self-esteem in battering parents…."

    Abortion hasn't helped prevent violent children.Since Roe v. Wade, the number of juvenile violent crime arrest rates has almost doubled, from 215.9 arrests per 100,000 people in 1970, to 430.6 arrests per 100,000 people in 1990.

    Abortion hasn't helped couples. Researcher Emily Milling studied over 400 couples with women who had made a decision to have an abortion. 70% of the relationships ended within one month of the abortion.

    Abortion hasn't prevented children from being born into poverty. Since Roe v. Wade, the number of children relying on AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) has risen from 8.5 per cent (of all children) in 1970 to 11.9 per cent in 1990. 2 The number of children living in poverty has increased, from 15.1 per cent (of all children) in 1970 to 20.6 per cent in 1990.

    Abortion has become an excuse to have unsafe sex. Since Roe v. Wade, the number of teen pregnancies has more than doubled, from 4.94 per cent (of all teenagers) in 1972 to 9.92 per cent in 1990.

    Abortion has increased the number of abortions required of teenagers, and the number of births to teenage mothers. Since Roe v. Wade, the number of teen abortions has increased, from 19.9 per thousand teenagers in 1972, to 43.8 per thousand teenagers in 1990, while the number of teen births has increased from 22.8 per thousand teenagers to 42.5 per thousand teenagers in 1990.

    Abortion has increased the number of single-parent families. Since Roe v. Wade, the number of births to unmarried women has increased, from 10.7 per cent (of all births) in 1970, to 28.0 per cent in 1990.
    Abortion has increased the number of unwanted pregnancies. Since Roe v. Wade, the number of pregnancies ending in abortion has increased, from 12.9 per cent (of total pregnancies) in 1972, to 24.6 per cent in 1990.

    Sources
    1. US Department of Health & Human Services
    2. William J. Bennett. The Index of Leading Cultural Indicators.
    published jointly by Empower America and The Heritage Foundation, 1993,
    vol 1, p. 6.
    3. P. Ney, M.D. "Relationship between Abortion and Child Abuse." Canada
    Journal of Psychiatry, vol. 24, pp. 610-620.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
  169. Leviticus Jackson says:

    Greg,
    To you they may show the truth, but to other families in the neighborhood who live within walking distance it does bother little children. What about the families that lost a child to disease? How do you think a Mom who lost her child feels seeing an older man with a brown moustache and brown hair nearly every damn day sitting there on the corner with a horrendous dead baby sign. What would you say to that Mom who lost her kid? Would you make her look at that sign? I know one of your group has their child actually kiss those photos which I find troubling to put a child in that situation. We would never have an abortion but the difference between your group and my neighbors and I we wouldn't show it small kids and Moms. I guess my invite to the rally has been withdrawn. Oh well. I was serious though there is plenty of empty land across NY street. Nobody probably will build a fence over there.

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
  170. Paul2 says:

    Post 11 Frank. See Ya

    October 13th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
  171. Ocean says:

    Elizabeth says:
    Ocean- if you believe a woman should choose for herself whether or not she wants to be pregnant…then MAYBE..just maybe..she should choose NOT to have sex if she doesn't want to get pregnant. But I guess it is too much to hope for people to have some conviction and not have sex if they don't want a baby. But why should they? They can just have the baby suctioned out of their body if they get pregnant. Maybe women should grow up and take some personal responisibility and realize that being able to have a child is a gift, not a choice.

    Sorry, Elizabeth, but an unwanted pregnancy is NOT a gift to the woman who NEVER wanted children and DOESN'T want to be pregnant. Prolifers really need to accept the simple fact that NOT every woman sees pregnancy and birth as you (and they) do.

    Speaking for myself, I have NO intention of remaining celibate for the rest of my life just because I'm DONE with procreation. Been there, done that once, and once was more than enough. I'm very glad that Planned Parenthood is there to help women to PREVENT getting stuck with unwanted pregnancies by offering free or low-cost contraception, and other services, including abortion. It isn't for YOU to decide what another woman must do about her pregnancy. When it is your pregnancy, THEN it will be your decision.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
  172. Ocean says:

    "Ocean, I have a question for you. Do you believe the scientific proven truth that a fetus is a human being growing from the moment of conception, with its own DNA and blood system?
    Karen"

    To answer your question: Scientifically, it is HUMAN, but I don't buy the prolife argument that "it's a baby" at conception.

    And as far as I'm concerned, the "scientific truth" is irrelevant. It is up to EACH woman to decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy. Some will decide to continue, others will choose NOT to continue. The only time YOU get to decide is when it is YOUR pregnancy.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
  173. Meagan says:

    Leviticus,
    I ask you to please come to the rally. Just because you do not like the signs that some people may hold, does not mean that you can not and should not come. I too have a hard time about the decisions to use those signs, (note that i myself do not hold those signs) even though i feel they may be an important tool to use at times. I do not feel that anyone who already beleives abortion is wrong, should HAVE to see those pictures, nor do i beleive is it right for childen to see them. I do however believe any adult, pro-choice, pro-abortion, or undecided should see them. So i urge you to consult the only one who can give you the right answer, God. I do not look as those who hold the signs as wrong or bad it just isnt for me. I hope that maybe you would consider these things and take to heart the fact that you should come for no other reason than to stand up for whats right. Thank you and God Bless
    Sincerely,
    Meagan

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
  174. Leviticus Jackson says:

    Thank you Meagan,
    With Eric's guarantee that there will be no signs used I had about 30 people in my neighborhood ready to go. With what I have read today and yesterday we are all having 2nd thoughts.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
  175. Paul says:

    Comment #171:

    "And as far as I'm concerned, the "scientific truth" is irrelevant. It is up to EACH woman to decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy. Some will decide to continue, others will choose NOT to continue. The only time YOU get to decide is when it is YOUR pregnancy."

    So now even the 'golden standard' of liberals, -scientific evidence, is hogwash and irrelevant.

    What you are saying is everyone can decide for themselves what "truth" is or what "reality" is.

    This is a great way to build an anarchy.

    On the contrary, our great nation was actually founded upon certain unalienable truths. I quote the Declaration of Independence:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

    From its very foundations, our nation was built upon these fundamental truths. The denial of absolute truths and the error that scientific evidence is "irrelevant" are lies that threaten the very existence of our great republic.

    We stand for true freedom, with individual responsibility; true justice for each and every person from the moment of conception until natural death; and true liberty for all men and women, to pursue the happiness of a fully human life on earth, with respect and reverence for every person, from the moment of conception until natural death. No one has the right to take another innocent person's life, except in legitimate self-defense.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
  176. Amy says:

    I've had an abortion and I have never regretted it. It wasn't at Planned Parenthood. Uh, oh guys. Whatcha gonna do about that? Planned Parenthood gave me the birth control so I never had another one. Is it wrong to prevent the possibility to choose abortion?

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
  177. Meagan says:

    Leviticus,
    Just know that most people who go do have good intentions regardless of their methods. Sometimes people try so hard to do what they beleive is right, they lose focus of their intended audience, or even begin to dislike or fight the very people they stand for and with. It is an easy attack by the enemy to divide us, so we need to all stay strong, Catholic, Christian, Protestant, everyone. Even if we disagree with people, we must remember that we are not doing this for ourselves or our wants. We are doing it for the innocent, the victimized, the decieved, and the lost. We are doing it for the very people we stand to in opposition. We are doing it for God. If you prefer you may make your own signs like I and many others have, declaring our love for the hurt, and the children. I hope to see you there, along with everyone else. God Bless, and feel free to message on my page. It has been nice talking with you,
    Sincerely,
    Meagan

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
  178. Juli says:

    Huge pictures of open heart surgery and cancer tumors are disgusting too. Should we stop those medical procedures as well? I certainly don't want to see pictures of a colostomy plastered on a truck driving around my neighborhood on my way to work. Stop colostomy or perish. Colostomy – the construction of an artificial opening from the colon through the abdominal wall, thus bypassing a diseased portion of the lower intestine and permitting the passage of intestinal contents.

    October 13th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
  179. Marie says:

    I agree with Juli. The bloody pictures really hurt our movement and message of love of life. A co-worker picked up and was passing out yard signs in support of PP the day after the signs and the big truck showed up on New York Street. People were asking for them based on their disgust with that particular part of the protest. Causing offense spurred the other side to action and to openly support PP. Maybe we should rethink that part.

    October 14th, 2007 at 12:07 am
  180. Paul2 says:

    Hello again Mr Jackson,
    Even today there are still people out there who would continue to spread lies about unborn children as being nothing more than "blobs". As you probably read somebody was actually claiming that right here on this blog tonight. In the past, I held those signs precisely to prove/show to people that babies in the womb are really children. Today, I believe that society as a whole has turned a corner in awareness of what is actually going on when a child is aborted. I will not have any graphic signs at the rally. Thank you and you are welcome.

    October 14th, 2007 at 12:29 am
  181. Paul2 says:

    Amy, would you also throw away your toddler if she became inconvenient? Where do you draw the line?

    October 14th, 2007 at 12:38 am
  182. Paul2 says:

    Also Mr Jackson,
    With regard to Dominick's. I did get the feeling that
    the manager of Dominick's was somewhat remorseful about
    removing the pro-life people from the lot. And if he gave to the baby shower as you said then it doesn't seem right he should suffer.

    I am not boycotting Dominick's to punish him. In fact if what you say is true then he should be applauded for his efforts. But Dominick's must certainly be made aware of how we feel about it.

    Does anybody know how to find out is Safeway ever donated to pro-life charities or PP?

    October 14th, 2007 at 1:33 am
  183. Jason says:

    Patricia;

    Thanks for the citations, really. However, they weren't properly cited (What statistics and claims came from what source? I couldn't find a link for your last source via google, you wouldn't happen to have a link? All I could find was an article written by the author and it seemed very, very bias. I wouldn't be surprised to see that paper had been discredited. Hell, the quoted sections make claims that are baseless without proper citations that back them up, EG "Abortion lowers women's self-esteem"

    Anyways, you need to remember that correlation does not equal causation. An increase in crime rates doesn't necessarily mean it has anything to do with the legalization of abortions.

    And it most definitely does not change the fact that abortion rates are unchanged by legality, nor does it make the claim abortion rates were changed via legalization. All you've provided are at best coincidental statistics that could be contributed to any number of things.

    Illegal abortion quite literally kills women and robs them of their dignity by forcing them to sacrifice their health and taking away their choice of what happens to their body.

    October 14th, 2007 at 1:55 am
  184. Paul2 says:

    Jason,
    1)No abortion is good for a woman, legal or illegal.
    Any abortion performed on a minor without parental consent should be illegal.

    2)As far as a consentual adults are concerned, consent itself is that first and most fundamental choice. Offering women contraceptives does not lead to fewer abortions. Contraceptives lead women to greater promiscuity and carelessness that results in unwanted pregnancies.

    A level of responsibility to the baby should be required of women even in the first trimester of pregnancy. These babies have brains, eyes, toes, fingers, nose and heartbeat. It should be common sense that ripping apart small babies is something that should be regulated , if not made illegal.

    October 14th, 2007 at 2:48 am
  185. Frank says:

    "No abortion is good for a woman".

    Still lying, paul? Seeya.

    October 14th, 2007 at 4:37 am
  186. Kirk says:

    "Huge pictures of open heart surgery and cancer tumors are disgusting too. Should we stop those medical procedures as well?"
    That is a fantastic point that I hadn't thought about. We force our children to see graphic photograps of cancerous lungs in public school. The idea is to show them the shocking reality of smoking. The idea is to shock them into not smoking. Since I have NEVER heard anyone complain about this tactic (As far as I know we've subjected every child in this state to see such pictures for about the last 40 years) it demonstrates that the sensitivity to the abortion pictures is more about the actual message than the nature of the photos. This is another case of relativism (If I want to do it or want to see it, it must be good/If I don't want to do it or want to see it, it must be bad)

    October 14th, 2007 at 6:59 am
  187. Ocean says:

    Paul2 says:
    "As far as a consentual adults are concerned, consent itself is that first and most fundamental choice. Offering women contraceptives does not lead to fewer abortions. Contraceptives lead women to greater promiscuity and carelessness that results in unwanted pregnancies."

    ********

    Oh PLEASE, what utter nonsense. I've been on contraceptives for more than 20 years. I have only had ONE pregnancy in my life, and that was a WANTED pregnancy, when I went OFF the pill to conceive.

    Regarding your comment about "greater promiscuity," that's all a matter of perception. Not everyone chooses to remain celibate until marriage, and some men and women choose NOT to marry at all. If individual women find the idea of contraception offensive, their solution is simple; DON'T use it. It really isn't THAT hard to figure out.

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:39 am
  188. Ocean says:

    Amy says:
    "I've had an abortion and I have never regretted it. It wasn't at Planned Parenthood. Uh, oh guys. Whatcha gonna do about that? Planned Parenthood gave me the birth control so I never had another one. Is it wrong to prevent the possibility to choose abortion?"

    *******

    For some prolifers, even contraception to PREVENT pregnancy and birth is a "sin against god." Just ask people like Mark Creech and Albert Mohler or better yet, check out their writings on the subject. They are as anti-contraception as they are anti-abortion.

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:44 am
  189. Ocean says:

    Paul2 says:
    "Amy, would you also throw away your toddler if she became inconvenient? Where do you draw the line? "

    ******

    Shouldn't you be asking Andrea Yates and Susan Smith (to name just TWO) those questions? After all, they DID kill their born children. But hey, at least they didn't abort, so I guess that makes it "different?" @@

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:47 am
  190. Nancy says:

    Dear Leviticus,

    You sure know a lot about Dominick's and no I am not
    going to meet you at the mall.

    You are in the wrong mind set to be a pro-lifer and to
    see a child kiss a Malachi sign is a little too much. Maybe your imagination got the best of you.

    If people knew the truth they wouldn't have allowed Planned Parenthood here to begin with. Any person who lost their baby would do nothing but sympothize impothise with the child whose horrific brutal death was caused by his owne parents.

    You really showed your true colors when you cursed about a man who is holding a picture of the truth.
    That man out there day after day is a real man, courageous, brave,unafraid of the truth, unselfish, untiering. Brave men aren't afraid of the truth!

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:04 am
  191. Frank says:

    "If people knew the truth they wouldn't have allowed Planned Parenthood here to begin with."

    Who is 'they'? Since there was no legal basis to stop PP from building and opening, your comment is silly. Whining and holding up signs bought the apparently jobless protesters a few extra days, but then the law was followed, permits were issued, and justice was served.

    PP is a great organization and people who care about women should continue to support it with donations and prayers.

    The best part is: the new Aurora clinic is the first (I think) of many new gigantic mega-clinics that will be opening all over the country, providing a wonderful array of health services for their patients.

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:28 am
  192. Karen says:

    Back and forth and back and forth we go. To all of you who defend abortion- A fetus is a growing human baby. It is alive, because if it were dead, killing it or stopping it from existing would not be needed. Also it is human , example: dogs have puppies, people have babies. The human fetus does have its own blood system and DNA, ask any doctor regardless of his or her own faith. The human baby in the womb has its own body and depends on its mother to survive. When she chooses to have an abortion she chooses to kill it, simple as that, and I thought killing another human being who is defenseless, is murder. A society that condones murder of a child in the womb is an EVIL society, a selfish society, a cold and ruthless society, a society on a spiral downward on a slippery slope. It will and has led our society to a mindset that everything is relative, if I think its ok then its ok. Pretty soon truth and reason are out the window and everything is up for grabs. Please don't continue with all the talk about the woman. If a woman who is suffering from poverty and hard times or psychological problems and has a child and feels she can't have this baby around and take care of it should she be able to kill it? You would answer no, why ? Because the baby is outside the womb? It's still the same baby, in or out it still has the same blood and DNA it had in the womb. It still has the same fingerprints. A ten year old is still the same person as when it was two years old. It didn't change to a whole different person. You would instead help the woman and or give her child up for adoption, not tell her to kill it . So stop supporting the killing of babies in the womb. Nothing justifies it, no matter how it was conceived, it is still alive and a human person, in or out! Goodbye and God help us all!

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:38 am
  193. Amy says:

    Karen,
    Very well said.
    Amy

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:48 am
  194. Frank says:

    " Please don't continue with all the talk about the woman."

    Classic – a keeper. That says it all.

    Oh, and the "Dogs have puppies" epiphany….absolutely brilliant! You must have a PhD, or some other fancy degree.

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:52 am
  195. Amy says:

    To Amy,
    I am sorry that you felt the need to have an abortion. I have been an unwed mother, far from family and anyone who cares. It is very difficult. Whether you believe it now or not someday you will regret it. Project Rachel is out there to help. I know you don't believe this either but there are people praying for you already with only love in their hearts.
    God Bless
    Amy (mother of 9, 6 here on earth and 3 in heaven by God's choice)

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:03 am
  196. Dolores says:

    Dear Frank, + J M J +

    You're calling my comment 'silly' about people having a say in their own goverment? I think you need a civics class. Try to remember who is funding Planned Parenthood, it is US, the taxpayers, subsidising a billion dollar, so-called, non-profit organization.

    Since Planned Parenthood did sneeked into Aurora under disguise under 'Gemini Medical' you mean people can start killing people in our backyards and we have no say so? And your worried about the environment right?
    Now that's silly. Think about it.

    I'm through wasting time on this blog today. Certainly we know where you are coming from. You seem to be the devil's tool. I am going door-to-door with "Planned Parenthood BAD for Aurora signs". Thousands of more signs are being made right now.

    I think we should all get out there if we can today and go for the reachable people and like Father Pavone says, get the fruit that is within reach. Time is of the essence. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THAT THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING FOR PLANNED PARENTHOOD! THEIR GOAL IS TO GET INTO OUR SCHOOLS AND TEACH CHILDREN AS YOUNG AS 5 YEARS OF AGE THAT A WOMEN DOESN'T HAVE TO KEEP HER BABY. OH, THERE IS NOTHING SACRED ABOUT THE BEAUTIFUL GIFT OF SEX IF YOU LISTEN TO P.P., THEY WISH TO MAKE IT A FUN GAME IN WHICH EVERYONE LOOSES IN AT THE END.

    Sorry Frank, we are taking your right to kill innocent people away Frank. Isn't that silly?

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:23 am
  197. Susan says:

    Dear Frank;
    I would like to respond to your comment about PP being ".. a great organization …"
    Reading available literature on the web about PP could possibly change your mind, especially articles about the founder, Margaret Sanger.

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:40 am
  198. Frank says:

    "there are people praying for you already with only love in their hearts."

    I am praying that the lord will show you that born women and their rights to control their own bodies are infinitely more important than any rights that you imagine non-viable tissue might possess.

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:41 am
  199. Leviticus Jackson says:

    Nancy says: Dear Leviticus,
    You sure know a lot about Dominick's and no I am not
    going to meet you at the mall.
    You are in the wrong mind set to be a pro-lifer and to
    see a child kiss a Malachi sign is a little too much. Maybe your imagination got the best of you.
    If people knew the truth they wouldn't have allowed Planned Parenthood here to begin with. Any person who lost their baby would do nothing but sympothize impothise with the child whose horrific brutal death was caused by his owne parents.
    You really showed your true colors when you cursed about a man who is holding a picture of the truth.
    That man out there day after day is a real man, courageous, brave,unafraid of the truth, unselfish, untiering. Brave men aren't afraid of the truth!

    Nancy,
    The lady I am talking about who lost her child to a disease after 53 days on this Earth earlier this year. Unless you have lost one you really can't honestly believe that this woman who is a Saint really sympathizes with the "Brave Men" who hold those signs can you? Does this woman need a reminder every time she comes home? This woman held her child after she passed and it was the worst feeling. That man is a bully who you claim is brave is nothing more than who shows those signs to little children. By the way the woman who has her kid kiss those photos is on this site. So please spare me that this guy is a Saint for doing it. I look out for my friends, relatives and if they hurt I hurt and that man is making this woman hurt without question. We would never have an abortion but we would never spread things around the neighborhood as your group has.

    Paul2: Thanks

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:43 am
  200. Frank says:

    "I would like to respond to your comment about PP being ".. a great organization …"
    Reading available literature on the web about PP could possibly change your mind, especially articles about the founder, Margaret Sanger."

    Been there, done that. How do I contact her? How long has she been dead? What does she have to do with the awesome job PP is doing now?

    I love PP.

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:43 am
  201. Frank says:

    "Shouldn't you be asking Andrea Yates and Susan Smith (to name just TWO) those questions? After all, they DID kill their born children."

    You are talking to people who don't give a spit after the birth. They can always pump out more alterboys for the priests later.

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:49 am
  202. Frank says:

    "Sorry Frank, we are taking your right to kill innocent people away Frank. Isn't that silly?"

    No, it's a lie. I have (obviously) never had an abortion, nor do I know anyone (that I know of) who has.

    As for the rest of the crap you posted (civics?) I just wasted 5 min. of my life looking for the posts you referred to but didn't copy. I don't think they are there, or else you didn't understand them/lied about their contents. Or both.

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:52 am
  203. Frank says:

    "The lady I am talking about who lost her child to a disease after 53 days on this Earth earlier this year."

    It was born. Most antichoicers don't care.

    October 14th, 2007 at 10:03 am
  204. Pat Wagner says:

    From just looking at the picture it looks like Dominic's put the fence out on public right-of-way. Although there's not a sidewalk there, there is a public right-of-way for a certain distance from the middle of the street.

    Perhaps the attorneys should look into the possibility of requiring them to move the fence back some distance.

    October 14th, 2007 at 10:14 am
  205. Gabby says:

    To Jason,

    The Guttmacher Institute and World Health Organization have a history of being proponents of population control via abortion, artificial contraceptives and the like. Their studies are biased to bring about results that promote their agenda. Ask any business school professor, that's basic Statistics 101.

    October 14th, 2007 at 10:33 am
  206. Kevin says:

    I have a question for Frank and Ocean: Do you support third trimester abortion?

    October 14th, 2007 at 11:24 am
  207. Juli says:

    Third trimester abortion is limited by law to only saving the life and health of the mother. They are performed on non-viable pregnancies meaning that the fetus will not survive once born at full gestation and the mother will suffer irreparable health harm.

    I know someone that had this procedure because the baby had no brain only liquid inside the skull and a head enlarged to four times the normal size. Completing the last month of the pregnancy would mean she could at worst die or at best never have children again due to a destroyed uterus.

    Third trimester pregnancies are not a "choice option" but a tragedy to be grieved and should not be a part of this debate. The Supreme Court struck down the "partial birth abortion law” Congress passed because the life of the mother was not considered within the law. It is perfectly legal to restrict abortion after the first trimester but not disregard the life of the mother. Since no one has "partial birth abortions" unless their life is in jeopardy anti-abortion advocates in Congress refuse to add that clause. It would make the law meaningless.

    October 14th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
  208. Dawn says:

    Re: post 163

    Dominicks did NOT contribute any items or money to the Community Baby shower (I was the organizer of that event) however, the store manager, Vick, was helpful by letting us set up in the rear of the parking lot. I just want to set the facts straight.

    The store managers really have very little (if any) say in this whole situation so I recommend that people realize that this all happens at a corporate level and not take it out on the Dominicks employees. It will be their decision (the employees) as to whether they agree with their employer and want to continue to work there.

    October 14th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
  209. Paul2 says:

    Thank you for clarifying that Dawn.

    October 14th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
  210. Dawn says:

    I also have to laugh at the answers from Frank and Ocean, posts 156 and 171. Apparently Frank has never seen the National Geographic special titled "In The Womb". Last i checked Nat'l Geo was not religious in any way and yes it IS proven by science that life begins at conception. This movie uses in-utero cameras to capture a babies development from conception to birth. It's worth a watch Frank – my 8 year old highly recommends it to all women visiting PP for an abortion or to anyone who questions when life begins.

    and to post 171 – Ocean – how can you agree that a fetus is a human but not a baby? What else is a baby but a small human???? Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds?

    October 14th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
  211. Maria says:

    Jason says:
    "If you guys value and care about the well being of these women as you claim, what do you think of this article that recently appeared in the Chicago tribune?

    Basically, scientific studies have demonstrated abortion rates remain the same whether abortion is illegal or not. All making it illegal does is move it underground at great, great danger to the women who seek out abortions. When abortion is illegal, doctors don't preform abortions, morons with no or very minimal medical training do.

    In fact, Planned Parenthood's presence actually LOWERS abortion rates via sex education and distribution of birth control at an affordable rate.

    If you got you got your wish, and abortion was made illegal, you would insure not only the demise of the fetuses, but of the women too."

    Actually the Guttmacher Institute is just another arm of Planned Parenthood. They did NOT demonstrate that abortion rates remain the same in a "scientific study." See Planned Parenthood's OWN blog at:http://ppaurora.blogspot.com/

    "The Guttmacher Institute and World Health Organization report reveals:
    For every 1,000 women of childbearing age (15–44) worldwide, 29 were estimated to have had an induced abortion in 2003, compared with 35 in 1995."

    Do you see that? ESTIMATED. An estimate is NOT a scientific fact; an estimate is a guess.

    "The decline was most substantial in Europe, where the rate fell from 48 to 28 abortions per 1,000 women, largely because of dramatic declines in Eastern Europe. On the whole, the abortion rate decreased more in developed countries, where abortion is generally safe and legal on broad grounds (from 39 to 26), than in developing countries, where the procedure is largely illegal and unsafe (from 34 to 29). Significantly, the abortion rate for 2003 was roughly equal in developed and developing regions—26 and 29, respectively—despite abortion being largely illegal in developing regions. Health consequences, however, vary greatly between the two regions, since abortion is generally safe where it is broadly legal and mostly unsafe where restricted. (emphasis mine)

    The bad news is that unsafe abortions are still happening around the world and in countries where abortion is illegal at a rate that is astronomically higher than where abortion is legal:

    The study also found that an estimated 20 million unsafe abortions occurred in 2003, 97% of these in developing regions."

    See? ESTIMATED again. Read how Bernard Nathanson, one of the founders of NARAL (National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws, now known as NARAL Pro-Choice America)way back in 1968 "estimated" the numbers of illegal abortions and the numbers of women's deaths from illegal abortions:

    From: http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html
    "We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of
    illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around
    200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000.

    October 14th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
  212. Kirk says:

    Frank says: Brian Griese is god!

    Well, at least Frank is consistent. He hasn't been right about anything.

    October 14th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
  213. Steve says:

    —# 171 Ocean says:

    "Ocean, I have a question for you. Do you believe the scientific proven truth that a fetus is a human being growing from the moment of conception, with its own DNA and blood system?
    Karen"

    To answer your question: Scientifically, it is HUMAN, but I don't buy the prolife argument that "it's a baby" at conception.

    And as far as I'm concerned, the "scientific truth" is irrelevant. It is up to EACH woman to decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy. Some will decide to continue, others will choose NOT to continue. The only time YOU get to decide is when it is YOUR pregnancy.
    October 13th, 2007 at 11:15 pm—

    At least Ocean is willing to admit that for her truth is irrelevant. This is as good as an admission that her argument is not based on truth or reason but on intentional ignorance, emotion, and personal desire.

    —#156 Frank says:

    "Ocean, I have a question for you. Do you believe the scientific proven truth that a fetus is a human being growing from the moment of conception, with its own DNA and blood system?"

    Since that is your opinion and NOT 'scientific proven truth' (whatever that is supposed to mean), your question is meaningless.
    October 13th, 2007 at 9:06 pm

    Again, another example of intentional ignorance. Since these two seem to be opposed to the word "TRUTH", maybe the question could be rephrased with the word "FACT". As in, It is a "scientific proven FACT that the fetus is a human being growing from the moment of conception". Hopefully that isn't too ambiguous for you. Any attempt to argue the TRUTH of this FACT is merely an attempt to redefine a term. The desire to redefine what "LIFE" is in no way changes the nature of a human fetus/baby, it merely avoids TRUTH and FACT as to what it means to be ALIVE.—

    October 14th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
  214. Becca says:

    I think Frank is engaging us in a conversation here that is going nowhere……. Everyone please ignore him…we need to encourage each other to keep up the fight, not defend ourselves, or our stand for LIFE!!! Talk to the hand Frank, talk to the hand!!! :O)

    October 14th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
  215. Elizabeth says:

    Haha becca, you're hilarious. "talk to the hand, talk to the hand"..AWESOME!

    October 14th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
  216. Steve says:

    You are right Becca, Frank does waste time generally and it may be best to ignore him and his lack of a valid argument. However, the majority of pro-choicers subscribe to his way of thinking and since this is a discussion maybe we should just be more selective in what we reply to and not cut him off completely. Of course his last statement makes that even harder to do, but alas, such is our fight.

    October 14th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
  217. Steve says:

    WOW…some people's kids…

    October 14th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
  218. Jason says:

    Paul2;

    I'm sure you have peer reviewed studies to backup your claims, right? I mean, I provided peer reviewed studies to back up my claims, you can at least do the same. Because at best, those statements are hearsay.

    October 14th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
  219. Eric Scheidler says:

    Note to all concerning Frank:

    I have just deleted several of Frank's most offensive remarks, as well as some comments on them that no longer made sense once the offensive originals had been removed.

    I'm sorry that those comments ever made it to the blog, but I hope everyone appreciates that monitoring that kind of puerile behavior on this website is hardly a priority for me.

    I had rather Frank had been ignored from the first. He had nothing—not one constructive thing—to add to the discussion.

    It only takes one or two exchanges to realize that someone is only here to act out, annoy, harass, offend and spew bile—a "troll"—and ought to be completely ignored.

    One of our key challenges is to pick our battles; another way to look at it is our duty to be good stewards of our time. Every second spent responding to the likes of Frank is a precious second wasted.

    I strongly urge all to save their time and energy for echanging views with those who are willing to engage in civil discussion.

    October 14th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
  220. Steve says:

    Understood Eric, and thank you.

    October 14th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
  221. bernice says:

    we really need to pray for the poor souls supporting abortion,,there's no doubt that the devil and his demons friends have their souls,,,but they still have a chance to save themselves while they are still on this earth,,,,

    October 14th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
  222. Patricia says:

    There is nothing on this earth that could possibly rob a woman of her dignity more than abortion.

    It goes against what God intended for females. When a procedure is done on a person to alter what is natures course, how can anyone believe there arent any physical and even emotional conseqeunces.

    Go to priestsforlife.org and read the testimonies of so many females who exercised their 'choice' and are now living to regret it.

    October 14th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
  223. Real Christian says:

    The area where protesters were "reaching out" to women? You mean the area where fanatical, hypocritical, religious zealots have been trespassing on private property and harassing people?

    You're not allowed to use someone else's private property without express permission, so quit whining already. Why don't you pay a little closer attention to the word of Jesus and go spend some time feeding the poor and helping the homeless?

    October 14th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
  224. Jason says:

    Patricia;

    Bringing god into this discussion does you no favors.

    What god intended for women doesn't jive with my feminist view points.

    (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT) If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

    Who the hell forces a woman to marry the man who raped her? Apparently, god.

    (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB) If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

    Stoning of rape victims who don't cry for help? Awesome.

    Deuteronomy 22:20-21:
    If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

    Stoning a woman for having a busted hymen, which doesn't even mean she's not a virgin? Sounds like god really cares about women.

    Really, that's just 3 of many, many wicked things god wants you to do to women. Does he REALLY have their best interest at heart? Or is he a misogynist on a power trip? I'm sorry if I and others like me are more ethical than god.

    The condescending "I'll pray for prochoicers" doesn't help you either. Those same prayers did nothing to stop PP from opening. So either god doesn't care to answer your prayers, or he's so powerless he can't stop a nonprofit health care facility from opening to the public. Either option can't be very heartening.

    Hell, beyond that you would have to prove god's existence for any argument that invokes god to be meaningful (You're a smart woman, I'm sure you realize how burden of proof works).

    October 14th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
  225. pastor Randy says:

    "real Christian" says "Why don't you pay a little closer attention to the word of Jesus and go spend some time feeding the poor and helping the homeless?"

    Yep, we do that too! It's not either/or, it's both/and.
    -Randy

    October 14th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
  226. Patricia says:

    A real christian would honor His commandment which states THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

    A real christian would speak up for His defenseless human beings whom cannot speak up for themselves.

    Do some statistic taking, the majority of those who believe that everyone of Gods people deserves the right to life, are the ones manning Pads and Hesed House week after week cooking and feeding the poor.

    October 14th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
  227. Patricia says:

    Almost sounds as tho Frank is now posting under Jasons name doesnt it?

    October 14th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
  228. Jason says:

    I'm most definitely not frank. He wasn't banned from the board, he just had a few post deleted.

    You didn't do anything to address the points I've brought up, and it's most definitely not trolling. All my quotations are valid and as far as I know in context, if I'm wrong please educate me, I'm no bible scholar.

    The two points I brought up after the quotations are all valid arguments, It's not like I'm trolling or name calling here.

    October 14th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
  229. Brian says:

    Do you not realize that the Torah was written in a time and place and the laws there specific to that time and place? You proved that fundamentalism–i.e. that every word of the Bible is absolutely true and timeless–is problematic. Congratulations. That doesn't have anything to do with abortion.

    October 14th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
  230. Jason says:

    Brian; So you're saying god's morals are relative and he changes his mind over time?

    I understand it was written during a time period when stoning women was all well and good, but it doesn't mean that it was every ethical or moral. Just as slavery may have been common place and acceptable, it still wasn't moral or ethical.

    October 14th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
  231. Jane Celeste says:

    Dear Readers!

    I must jump in here to defend the continuous lies about how we "pro-lifers" don't care about "born babies" and anyone else outside the womb- So far from the truth……

    I certainly don't speak for myself when I share the following ways we assist those born "outside" the womb…

    We volunteer at:

    Crisis Pregnacy centers assisting woman through her pregnacy- driving them to doctor appts, offereing babysitting services while they work, clean, offer meals, etc…….

    We volunteer at St. Vincent de Paul Chapters- providing financial asistance to those in need including food, mortgage, rent & utilities- often these clients are SINGLE MOTHERS!We provide clothing drives, too! We visit them in their homes and see all the ways we are able to assist and bring a loving hand.

    We care & visit the homebound- drive them to and from appts., take them shopping, provide financial assistance, prepare meals, etc….Often times we are called to serve at inconvenient times and sacrifice our own obligations to serve another in need.

    We Volunteer at Food Pantries- Both in offering goods, cash or simply volunteering our time stocking shelves, etc…

    We Volunteer at the Hesed House & Pads- Preparing and delivering meals, offering rest, comfort & conversation to those who find themselves in this predictament…volunteering our time offering employment and finacial seminars to help them get back on their feet.

    We volunteer our time with the physically and mentally challenged in our community- both in schools and with other service organizations.

    We volunteer in Hospitals – including delivering "Meals on Wheels" to the homebound or those with temporary illness, knitting hats and scarves for the underserved in our community who come through the ER, fundraising for not-for-profit hospitals that serve the poor and the uninsured in our communities.We serve on various boards to offer our talents and our hopes for the communities we serve.

    Provide "Ministry Meals"- to the sick or those who just delivered a baby- or who are grieving over a loss. We also provide meals to our Parish Priests and Pastors….

    I can't even begin list all of the things we are involved with … I haven't even tipped the iceberg-

    You see we are PRO-Life and our Actions and our Love of Neighbor reflects that. Please don't sell us short- each soul is precious in the eyes of God; and so as His disciples- all souls are precious to us too……and we do Pray; sun-up til sun-down…it's the Most Charitable thing we do. We protect life from conception to natural death and as you can see our activities touch all those in between too!

    May God Bless you all,

    Jane

    October 14th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
  232. Rebecca says:

    I guess in this case it is clear what side of the fence these stores are on. As with any business, money motivates them. I took my Dominicks card in to the store and turned it over to the manager. I told him I spend $150-$200 in that store per week. He can do the math and discuss that with corporate.

    That fence is ridiculous…it looks like a huge dog kennel. I say we go back to the prayer vigil in the back of the building as we did prior, it was purposeful then and will continue to be.

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
  233. FOM says:

    Planned Parenthood Ain’t Abortions

    During my OB-Gyn rotation, I’ve been working with the great staff of our local Planned Parenthood, and let me just say: Planned Parenthood rocks.

    I will admit, fully ignorant of Planned Parenthood beforehand, I thought I’d be doing abortion evaluations. Planned Parenthood equals abortions. That was the extent of my knowledge. I spoke with friends–well-educated, public health-type friends, and that was their same response. “So, did you do any abortions today?”

    I was so far, far off base it’s not even funny.* In fact, it may sound ironic, but I’m pretty confident when I say this: No matter what your feelings are about the subject, there would be more abortions performed in this country if Planned Parenthood didn’t exist. Let me explain.

    The patients I’ve seen have been, in general, young, healthy women, ages 12 to 26. They come in primarily for three things:

    annual exams (pap smears, breast exams, etc.),
    sexually-transmitted infection (STIs) diagnosis and treatment,
    and birth control.
    I see patients of all socio-economic statuses, but most are immigrants or lower-middle class women. Their health knowledge runs the gamut, from the highly educated 12 year-old I saw today, who curiously asked “how exactly do the birth control pills work?” to the 23 year-old who shrugs and answers questions with a dull, empty look on her face. Almost every single one uses some form of birth control.

    This makes sense. Over 90% of women of childbearing age use some sort of contraception method. I quickly became aware that my male gender has allowed me to pass through medical school (and life!) totally ignorant of all of this. My patients came in using almost everything–condoms, the pill, the patch, Nuvaring, Depo–and I was left perplexed. What a humbling role reversal–this was one of the first times it’s been so painfully obvious that my patients are more informed about their health and medicines than me. (This also made me realize that I generally assume I generally know more about medicine than my patients.) Not that the pharmacology or physiology is at all complex or difficult–just that the topics had never really come up before. Birth control was birth control was birth control.

    I’ve been having a fantastic time at Planned Parenthood–I’m able to perform a number of pelvic exams and get a good sampling of “normal variation,” and probably the harder part–I’m able to talk very candidly with my patients about their sexual health. It’s great practice just to get used to figuring out how to talk about “sexual activity” and “sexual intercourse,” because it certainly takes practice. You have to unlearn (or at least disengage) the typical social cues in your head that encourage you to avoid the subject or the word, especially since almost none of my patients have had any complaints or concerns with their sexual health. It’s great to see patients in an environment where discussing sexual health is the norm, as it also helps bring a level of normalcy to the encounter.

    We give out a ton of contraceptives every day. Condoms, pills, patches, rings, shots. And none of the patients I’ve seen are taking these medications for anything other than preventing pregnancy. They are sexually active, almost always with one, monogamous partner, and they do not want to get pregnant. And by enrolling these largely uninsured teens and young women in California’s Family PACT program, we’re able to provide them with free contraceptives and reproductive health services.

    55% of pregnancies in the US are unintended, and of these, 43% are live births, 43% are terminated electively, and 13% end in miscarriage.

    All the women I see in clinic are sexually active. And most are working or middle class at best by income standards (the average 2 bedroom apartment in the area runs you at least $1400 a month), most are uninsured, and most do not have another source of medical or reproductive care. And none want to get pregnant.

    Now just take away Planned Parenthood, add in the costs to see a health care provider and pay for contraceptives, and imagine how many more of my patients would become pregnant. Keeping everything else the same, you’d find many more women in the difficult position of considering an elective termination of pregnancy.

    I am far from zealot or activist–as I said before, I knew nothing before a few weeks ago–but I’ve been incredibly impressed with my short time there, and I’m hoping I’ve educated you as to what Planned Parenthood does in your community, since I was woefully ignorant myself.

    *Planned Parenthood provides reproductive health services, annual female gynecologic evaluations, breast exams, pap smears (and management and followup of abnormal pap smears), the HPV vaccine, STI testing including HIV, emergency contraception, vasectomies, patient education–the list goes on and on.

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
  234. Paul2 says:

    Jason,

    I am not sure which of my claims you would like backed by peer reviewed studies so I will go through each of them.

    1)"No abortion is good for a woman, legal or illegal."
    No peer study here but I have never known a woman who though abortion was so ggod that bthey planned one.

    2)"Any abortion performed on a minor without parental consent should be illegal".
    No peer study here. Parents should be notified of trauma to their children.

    3)As far as consentual adults are concerned, consent itself is that first and most fundamental choice.
    Just a fact no hearsay here.

    4)Offering women contraceptives does not lead to fewer abortions. Contraceptives lead women to greater promiscuity and carelessness that results in unwanted pregnancies.

    This would make a good peer review study. Poll the women who use contraceptives and if they would have just as much intercourse even if they were not on contraceptives. I think they would have less sex.

    A level of responsibility to the baby should be required of women even in the first trimester of pregnancy. These babies have brains, eyes, toes, fingers, nose and heartbeat. It should be common sense that ripping apart small babies is something that should be regulated , if not made illegal.

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
  235. NM says:

    Pastor Randy & Jane Celeste — 'Want to thank you for expressing your thoughts on my behalf, as well.

    In addition, the city of Chicago has been host to Pacific Garden Mission for 130 years and growing strong!!!
    http://www.pgm.org

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
  236. Kirk says:

    Jason,
    Thank you for your thoughtful question. You cited Old Testament passages that seem harsh. You seem to suggest that it conflicts with what we regard as Christianity. You seem to think that you are exposing contradictory information. However, Jesus said,
    "You have heard that it was said, 'An ey for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,' But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well…Matthew 6:38-40
    God and His word never changes. Mankind has changed and progressed, and thus God's relationship with us has changed (Perhaps as a parent's relationship changes as a child matures).
    Jesus did not say that the old law was wrong or abolished.
    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
  237. Patricia says:

    To everyone who believes that planned parenthood is a solution, please read the following:

    These statistics show that young, unmarried girls have a very high rate of contraception failure.

    As we all know planned parenthood makes 40% of their profits thru abortions, so they are always very happy to welcome these girls back when they become pregnant and are very eager to sell them an abortion.

    “Contraceptive Failure in the First Two Years of Use: Differences Across Socioeconomic Subgroups,” Nalini Ranjit, Akinrinola Bankole, Jacqueline E. Darroch and Susheela Singh. Family Planning Perspectives, Vol 33, No. 1. January/February 2001, pp. 19-27.
    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3301901.pdf

    “Contraceptive Failure Rates: New Estimates From the 1995 National Survey of Family Growth,” Haisahn Fu, Jacqueline E. Darroch, Taylor Haas, and Nalini Ranjit, Family Planning Perspectives, Vol 31, No. 2. March/April 1999, pp. 56-63.
    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3105699.pdf

    On Townhall.com today [9July07], Jennifer Roback Morse, author of Smart Sex: Finding True Love in a Hook-Up World, deftly and succinctly demonstrates how futile federally funded comprehensive sex education is for its target audience.

    The common number that is touted as evidence for the success of contraceptives is close to 90%.

    Ms. Roback Morse looks deeper and discovers that this number is more representative among married women in their 30's and 40's.

    Within this [married] group, only 3% of these women became pregnant while using the contraceptive pill.

    Nearly 50% however, of low-income co-habitating teenage girls become pregnant while using the contraceptive pill and over 70% become pregnant while using condoms.

    These are the numbers coming from the demographic the federal government is specifically targeting.

    The percentage of pregnancies that occur from abstinence is 0%.

    Despite this discrepancy in favor of abstinence, the federal government, Ms. Roback Morse states, spends $12 in contraceptive/condom education for every $1 in abstinence-only education.

    What is perhaps the most intriguing about this research is that the numbers come from Planned Parenthood. The very organization that aggressively advocates the use of contraceptives admits that their methods are at best feeble for their target audience. The federal government should look at these numbers and then focus its efforts on the inevitable success of abstinence instead of the inevitable failure of contraceptives.
    [FRC, 9July07]

    Additional Resources
    Get the Government Out of Sex Ed

    Monday, July 9, 2007

    If you need an operation and the doctor tells you that overall, seven-eighths of patients have a successful outcome, you might think that was a pretty good deal. But suppose the operation failed. While you’re in the recovery room, the doctor tells you, “Oh, by the way, for people like you, the operation only succeeds 30% of the time. But we’ll sell you the solution to the botched operation.” You’d be furious. You’d sue that doctor for malpractice if you didn’t punch him first.

    Yet this is precisely the situation Congress supports by funding Planned Parenthood and its allies to provide “comprehensive sex education” in secondary schools.

    This is no exaggeration. Look at contraceptive failure rates, using Planned Parenthood’s own data. Two studies, (listed below, with website addresses) use this definition of contraceptive failure: the percentage of women who experience a pregnancy at the end of one year of using a particular contraceptive method. Somewhere between 12% and 13% of all contracepting women experienced a pregnancy within a year. In other words, about seven-eighths of women use contraceptives successfully.

    Two of the most commonly used and widely promoted methods are oral contraceptives and the male condom. Of all women using the Pill for one year, somewhere around 8% will experience a pregnancy.

    Between 14% and 15% of women who use the condom will become pregnant within a year.

    But these statistics, while technically correct, don’t tell the whole story, not by a long shot. These are the “overall” statistics that our hypothetical doctor used in our opening story. The “for people like you” statistics paint a very different picture. These studies break down the population into age groups, income levels, marital status and race.

    A poor cohabiting teenager using the Pill has a failure rate of 48.4%. You read that correctly: nearly half of poor cohabiting teenagers get pregnant during their first year using the Pill. If she kicked her boyfriend out of the house, or if she married him, her probability of pregnancy drops to 12.9%. At the other extreme, a middle-aged, middle-class married woman has a 3% chance of getting pregnant after a year on the Pill.

    Over 70% of poor, cohabiting teenagers using condoms, will be pregnant within a year. By contrast, the middle-aged, middle-class married woman has a 6% chance of pregnancy after a year of condom use.

    These figures cast new light on the debate over contraception education. The commonly quoted failure rates of 8% for the Pill and 15% for the condom are inflated by the highly successful use by middle-aged, middle-class married couples. Yet, the government promotes contraception most heavily among the young, the poor and the single. The “overall failure rates” are simply not relevant to this target population.

    Planned Parenthood and its allies in the sex education business have had conniptions over federal funding for abstinence education. But at least abstinence actually works. If you don’t have sex, you won’t get pregnant. It works every time.

    With contraception, we can absolutely predict that some sexual encounters will result in pregnancy. The young, the poor and the unmarried are the most likely to experience a contraceptive failure. For these groups, pregnancy is not a rare accident, but highly likely. When the inevitable pregnancy occurs, guess who is ready to help solve her problem? That’s right: PLANNED PARENTHOOD WILL SELL HER AN ABORTION. The same people who teach sex education, which increases the demand for purchasing contraception, also sell the “solution” to contraceptive failure, which is abortion. Yet the federal government spends about $12 on contraceptive-related programs to every $1 spent on abstinence education.

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
  238. Paul2 says:

    FOM,
    The PP building in Aurora has 13 recovery rooms for abortion and they perform abortions on minors without parental consent. Would you perform an abortion on my minor daughter without my consent?

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
  239. Brian says:

    I didn't say that God's law was relative to the times. I was saying that the Torah was written by men at a time and place. I believe that the Bible was divinely inspired but not dictated to man by God. I'm not a fundamentalist by any means.

    None of that has anything to do with abortion. You can be a secular humanist and still see that abortion is a horror. That is Nat Hantoff's (sp?) position is.

    To the point above that Planned Parenthood is not about abortion. Well, yes and no. That's where they make their money. If you read the Beacon News today, you got a glimpse inside the abortion mill. Half of it is for family planning services (i.e. STDs, birth control, pap smears, other women's health) and the other half is abortion. They're divided and don't cross paths. While many on this board and many with whom I agree about abortion may find the birth control portion of PP objectionable, I differ from them. I don't think that it is proper to prescribe medicines to kids (such as the pill) without parental consent, but I don't think that is the most pressing moral evil. Abortion is. According to the Beacon, they have four surgical rooms where abortions are done. God only knows how many they do in a day, but they want to do thousands a year. So, yeah, Planned Parenthood is about abortion. The Beacon made that point today–the VNA and Aunt Martha's (is it Martha, I forget?) provide the non-abortion services that PP is providing. PP is the only abortion provider in Aurora. That's why they're here.

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
  240. Paul2 says:

    Also FOM:
    Who are you trying to fool. PP is abortions
    PP is THE organization that went all the way to the supreme court of the US fighting for their right to perform partial birth abortions. They are the ones who put their name on it.

    October 14th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
  241. FOM says:

    Paul2 says: FOM,
    The PP building in Aurora has 13 recovery rooms for abortion and they perform abortions on minors without parental consent. Would you perform an abortion on my minor daughter without my consent?

    Yes!

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
  242. Paul2 says:

    FOM:
    Most parents would call you a predator. And if you did
    I would hold you personally responsible for the murder of my grandchild and the mutilation of my daughter. Does that concern you at all?

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
  243. FOM says:

    Paul2 says: FOM:
    Most parents would call you a predator. And if you did
    I would hold you personally responsible for the murder of my grandchild and the mutilation of my daughter. Does that concern you at all?

    I would only care that my patient was happy and healthy.

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
  244. FOM says:

    BTW, I am not a doctor. I got that post from "Over My Med Body." He was the abortion doctor. I am a stay at home mom. But, I do live in Will County and I support the Aurora Clinic and everything they do. I am sure you guys are sincere, but you are really wasting your time and money. But, keep up the good work, abortion has been legal for thirty-five years and and it don't look like it is going anywhere.

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
  245. Anonymous says:

    I'm not sure if this has been written already (there are almost 250 messages to read through)…but are we allowed to protest on the public sidewalks that surround each entrance into the strip mall when Dominick's and PP are located? There are two entrances on the west end of the parking lot at Eola Road, one on New York Street, and one on Oakhurst Drive. If we are allowed to protest on public sidewalks, why not just have people at each entrance during their business hours so that no matter what way the "patients" come in, they will see us!

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
  246. Ocean says:

    Kevin says:
    I have a question for Frank and Ocean: Do you support third trimester abortion?

    ******

    It is my understanding that third trimester abortions are NOT elective, but are very rare, and done because of a medical emergency that has developed during the pregnancy. So yes, I do support it. I don't believe reputable doctors perform abortions for ELECTIVE reasons that late in the pregnancy.

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
  247. Paul2 says:

    FOM:
    your deception makes you a shining example of a PP supporter. All you have left to stand on is that "abortion has been legal for 35 years". Most of America still likes to use rational dialogue when debating issues so your unregulated days of murder are numbered.

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
  248. Ocean says:

    Dawn says:
    and to post 171 – Ocean – how can you agree that a fetus is a human but not a baby? What else is a baby but a small human???? Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds?

    *****

    I believe I said "I don't buy the argument that 'it's a baby' at conception." If YOU want to scream and shout "it's a baby," that's YOUR perception, not mine.

    What is ridiculous are prolifers demanding that a woman should be forced to gestate and give birth when she never wanted to BE pregnant in the first place. I also don't subscribe to the anti-choice mantra, "if you don't want a baby, don't have sex." For me, sex is wonderful, pregnancy is not, which is why I use contraception. You know, the PREVENTION thing.

    Another reason for me to love PP, they provide contraception at little or no cost to women who DON'T want to be pregnant, and provide abortions to women if their BC failed and they don't want to stay pregnant. And I thank Dominick's for putting up that fence to protect us from prolifers' so-called "counselling."

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
  249. Real Christian says:

    How are you supposed to be feeding the poor and helping the homeless if you're spending all your time harassing and terrorizing young women as they seek affordable health services? There are the same people out there day after day. People from a church in Downers Grove and further out. People who don't even live in the vicinity of Aurora. They're spending quite a lot of time inflicting their high and mighty belief systems on others in a community in which they do not live.

    Sorry, I am just not buying that the bulk of you spend a significant amount of time actually helping people. I think it's easier and more provocative to you to be spectacles on the street and act all high and mighty.

    That is not the way my Jesus taught us to act. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You are certainly not without sin. No one is but Him. I suggest you go spend some time actually serving humanity in order to become more Christ-like instead of terrorizing women.

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
  250. Elizabeth says:

    FOM-
    Slavery was around for a lot longer than 35 years, but today it isn't legal. Eventually abortion won't be either. Time has a way of righting the wrong's and injustices of human beings. Thank GOD for that.

    Elizabeth

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
  251. Kirk says:

    Ocean, you were originally asked by Karen, "Ocean, I have a question for you. Do you believe the scientific proven truth that a fetus is a human being growing from the moment of conception, with its own DNA and blood system?

    You responded, "To answer your question: Scientifically, it is HUMAN, but I don't buy the prolife argument that "it's a baby" at conception."

    Most recently you stated, "I believe I said "I don't buy the argument that 'it's a baby' at conception." If YOU want to scream and shout "it's a baby," that's YOUR perception, not mine."

    If I understand you correctly, you are stating that a fetus is human at conception but it is not a baby at conception. I must admit that I'm confused. Please go to:
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby
    A "baby" is defined as a "human fetus."

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
  252. Elizabeth says:

    You guys are so funny who think we are out there "terrorizing" women. If you call speaking the truth is terrorism then I guess we are. If you call publicly praying and walking around holding signs terrorism then I guess it is. You only view it as terrorism if you don't agree with it. I guarantee you the time spent out there educating people does just as much for the sanctity of human life as does cooking at a soup kitchen. Both acts save lives. Get over yourselves and your double-standards.

    October 14th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
  253. Eric Scheidler says:

    I thought the discussion here of when human life begins would be assisted by this page from the Pro-Life Action League's "Questions and Answers" section. Might clear up a few things.

    For example, at conception an organism is not called a "fetus" but a "zygote"; in human development, the fetal stage begins at about eight weeks.

    And to the commenter going by the name Real Christian: Why don't you try coming by the sidewalk sometime and talking to some of the pro-life people there. Your impression may be that we're "high and mighty," but I think you'll find the reality rather different.

    This will afford you the opportunity to find out what other kind of ministry individual pro-life activists have done—if trying to save babies and their mothers from abortion doesn't cut it for you. See for yourself.

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
  254. Library Betty says:

    I want to keep on track about Dominick's and the fence. That is the point of the initial post.

    I won't shop at Dominick's anymore, and my family has been devoted Dominick's shoppers. I was at a large family gathering today and spoke to everyone about the situation and they won't be shopping at any Dominicks' until the fence is altered or removed.
    They have made a business decision that is short-sighted. If they really want to reduce their liability, they wouldn't have put up a fence which forces customers to walk down a street- without any room to dodge from traffic. If they really want to stay out of the PP issue, they should have put up a fence blocking traffic to their lot from the Oakhurst entrance. That way no protesters would be using their lot and they would disassociate themselves from the issue. PP 'customers' would then be the only people using the private road.

    Also, I think it is counter-productive to argue with the pro-death trolls on this blog. Their only intention is to confuse issues and sidetrack us from our efforts. I believe that continued discussion only emboldens them in their mission to elict scandal — no good comes from it.

    Let's not be distracted from our mission to achieve the closure of PP by legal means. PP practices evil proudly, their defenders are to be pitied and prayed for.

    October 14th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
  255. HR says:

    "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

    Hi Real Christian, thanks for your post. I don't think anyone is casting stones by trying to talk and share information.

    That's like saying we are:
    Casting stones at the hungry by giving them food.
    Casting stones at the naked by giving them clothes. Or, casting stones at the homeless by giving them shelter.

    Blessings!

    -HR

    October 14th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
  256. Paul2 says:

    "Real Christian"

    You blaspheme our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ associating a name like yours to the pro-abort cause.
    I would guess deception like that would make you a PP troll maybe. Nobody here wants to sell you anything and we certainly don't want to buy your services. So this is my last post to you. You can go the way of
    MOF and Frank. ignored whose next… See ya

    Jesus says
    "it would be better that you have millstone tied around your neck and be cast to the bottom of the sea then to hurt one of his little ones".

    October 14th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
  257. Paul says:

    Back to the topic:

    DOMINICK'S ERECTS FENCE UNDER COVER OF NIGHT

    First of all, you have to ask "Why did they put this fence up at night?" It probably cost Dominick’s a lot more $$ to have a company that erects “TEMPORARY FENCING” send workers out late at night to put this fence up. Besides the obvious: that few if any of us would be out there to see it, did they think that the daytime prayer supporters would try to keep them from putting up the fence? Are they afraid of us? Are they trying to copy Mayor Rich Daley (in the Meigs Field debacle)?

    Secondly, did they estimate (or underestimate) the numbers? Namely, how much it would cost them in lost revenue from our boycott? I would guess that all of us who are against PP are now e-mailing and telling all our friends, both near and far, to: 1) not shop at Dominick's or Safeway stores, and 2) to write to their local and corporate headquarters to tell them of our boycott and of our disappointment at their support for PP in erecting that illegal fence based on the complaints of PP's volunteers, employees and the few supporters who may have phoned the store.

    I also happened to find out that the PP Express in Naperville on North Aurora Road, also happens to be located in the Dominick's shopping plaza. Coincidence? Are they business partners?

    I personally find it sickening to think that one place that dispenses all manner of abortion causing chemicals, and promotes promicuous sex, and another place, the worst of all, the one that kills tiny babies, are both located right next to the store that provides food for thousands of families. Does that make anyone else sick to their stomachs?

    October 15th, 2007 at 12:09 am
  258. Mary Schott says:

    So, why didn't PP just put up a fence around their place??

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:15 am
  259. Paul2 says:

    Paul,
    As I see it this eye-sore of a fence will likely alienate the residents of Aurora and galvanize further support for our pro-life cause.

    Last week I did see the PP web-site was posting requests for their supporters to e-mail Safeway/Dominick's to kick us off that vacant lot. I intend to e-mail each of the Safeway/Dominicks corporate addresses listed in Kirk's previous post.

    Steven.Burd@safeway.com – CEO
    Robert.Edwards@safeway.com – CFO
    Larree.Renda@safeway.com – Chief Admin. Officer
    Brian.Dowling@safeway.com – Safeway's vp of public affairs)
    Winona.Redmon@safeway.com (Dominick's public affairs)
    terry.rogers@safeway.com, Chief Investigator

    I will be asking them to reverse their decision to erect the fence around the vacant lot where peaceful pro-life prayer groups were meeting. And I will be notifying them that any further actions taken against my pro-life friends in Aurora would encourage a larger network of pro-life friends and families to join in a nationwide boycott of their stores.

    Mary,a fence would seem fitting around that PP fortress.

    October 15th, 2007 at 4:17 am
  260. CherryRose says:

    Eric Scheidler says:
    I think I just saw someone call a woman a misogynist. Silly, but not surprising.

    I would remind all that personal attacks will not be tolerated on this blog; those whose egos are invested in getting attention here would do well to avoid phrases like "fundie misogynists" and "typical anti-choice violence."

    Eric, how much credibility can we give to a person who can't tell the difference between opinion and its expression and slander? Please explain what makes "typical anti choice violence" a personal attack when we are discussing a GROUP of political activists who have engaged in bombing, intimidation, and murder?

    October 15th, 2007 at 4:22 am
  261. CherryRose says:

    Elizabeth says:
    FOM-
    Slavery was around for a lot longer than 35 years, but today it isn't legal. Eventually abortion won't be either. Time has a way of righting the wrong's and injustices of human beings. Thank GOD for that.
    ………………………
    Reply from Cherry: Thank you, God, for 35 years and counting of safe and legal abortion and contraception.

    Thank you for the more than 1500 clergy who formed the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion and changed the emotional and civil climate and contributed toward the passage of Roe v. Wade by changing minds and hearts. Their work for reproductive justice has changed the lives of women and children for the better for 40 years.

    Thank you, God, for the religious denominations who understand the importance of reproductive justice and who support safe and legal abortion and contraception.

    Dear God, please continue to put stumbling blocks before the feet of those who wish to make women slaves and kill them. Make Antis pay in this world and the one beyond for the death of every woman in Nicaraugua who dies or suffers because she can't obtain safe and legal abortion and contraception.

    October 15th, 2007 at 4:33 am
  262. CherryRose says:

    Paul2 says:
    FOM:
    your deception makes you a shining example of a PP supporter. All you have left to stand on is that "abortion has been legal for 35 years". Most of America still likes to use rational dialogue when debating issues so your unregulated days of murder are numbered.

    Reply form Cherry: Fist you say "rational dialogue" and then you say "days of murder?" Laughimg my butt off at you.
    It would be good if you could understand that abortion is not murder, why it is not murder, and that it was not murder when it was illegal. It would be good if you knew that at one time the RCC permitted abortion until quickening. That's about 4 1/2 months.
    Then the intelligent and rational folks won't laugh at you. Wait, I am in favor of safe and legal abortion and contraception, so carry on.
    Oh, and answer this please. If abortion is criminalized, what penalty shall the woman pay for this "murder?"
    Oh, and are you aware that Catholic women make up about a third of the population in general and exactly one third of the abortions obtained in America?

    October 15th, 2007 at 4:46 am
  263. Ocean says:

    Paul says: Back to the topic:
    DOMINICK'S ERECTS FENCE UNDER COVER OF NIGHT

    "I personally find it sickening to think that one place that dispenses all manner of abortion causing chemicals, and promotes promicuous sex, and another place, the worst of all, the one that kills tiny babies, are both located right next to the store that provides food for thousands of families. Does that make anyone else sick to their stomachs?"

    *******

    Gee, and I thought you were trying to get back to the topic, the fence. I guess it never occurred to the prolifers that the fence may have been erected at night because those who wanted the fence put up knew that the PLers would try to BLOCK the fence from going up if it were done during the day.

    Oh, and please explain your definition of "promiscuous sex" for us. That has SUCH a wide variety of interpretations, after all. I suspect that for hard-line christians, it means ANY sex without marriage or without the intention to procreate.

    October 15th, 2007 at 5:23 am
  264. John says:

    "You guys are so funny who think we are out there "terrorizing" women. If you call speaking the truth is terrorism then I guess we are."

    I'm sure Bin Laden tells his supporters and his opposition the "truth" also and we call it terrorism don't we?

    Truth is in the eye of the beholder.

    October 15th, 2007 at 6:56 am
  265. Rebecca says:

    Let me take a crack at promiscuous sex…..Sex that does not involve love, commitment or responsibility to any consequences that may arise….like a relationship or a pregnancy. Lets be honest, that style of sex is out there and it's how P.P. makes their money.

    If you LOVED your partner and LOVED yourself you might be thinking…..oh, I don't know….FAMILY not ABORTIONS. Perhaps the definition of promiscuity might help you out. "engaging in casual and indiscriminate sex" (syn. promiscuous, sleeping around). Actually in the dictionary. For this lifestyle to be condoned for pre teens or anyone may seem like a normal developmental passage to many but controlling our bodies and taking accountability for ourselves is called maturity.

    We actually try to instill that into our kids and the beauty of human nature is that it's never to late to correct negative behavior, seek forgiveness and change. Trying to live the lie of "all sex is ok" is bogus. Are we supposed to believe that the whole "friends with benefits" and oral sex is safe sex, is responsible behavior? Is is "safe" only because no baby results? Or if you glove up enough or use enough lotions etc., you won't get disease? THere is a time, place and maturity level that comes with this most benevolent gift from our creator. Any other use is immature and yields consequences that can not be sucked away at planned parenthood. Wise up.

    Regarding the fence, it is certainly more of an eye sore to those who live in this neighborhood than 5-6 people praying. It makes a statement and we have a right to object to the statement. It is offensive to our purpose. A building that looks like a jail and now has the fenced in prison yard is deplorable. It's just missing the barbed wire and it could resemble a prison camp. I am done at that plaza just due to the fact that bullet proof glass means bullets are a potential and not from prayer vigil people, but perhaps fanatics or police officers who have more power than brains.

    So many politicians and business people want to play this two ways, all caving to P.P. and their rhetoric. This movement made a statement when we only had access to a sidewalk and can continue to do that. The city and P.P. want us to disband, this is only the beginning. This clinic is no different than the one in downtown Aurora. Both sides were present on a daily basis and that will continue. Anyone that does not like it should chastise P.P. for their choice in location and mode of misconduct with a stealth mode business plan.

    The point of that fence was to be able to arrest us for trespassing…period. The downside is that the city(allowing that eye sore despite it does not meet the standard)…is a new precedent they seem to be setting. The other downside is that the entire community can see that fence and think it is keeping out the fanatic prayer minded, peaceful protesters. It's a war of public opinion, planned parenthood knows that. That fence is the "protesters fault" they would assert. To me it just shows how intolerent and dismissive our neighbors are to our right to speak/pray and have a presence at that location. No surprise there.

    October 15th, 2007 at 7:01 am
  266. CherryRose says:

    Rebecca says:
    Let me take a crack at promiscuous sex…..Sex that does not involve love, commitment or responsibility to any consequences that may arise….like a relationship or a pregnancy. Lets be honest, that style of sex is out there and it's how P.P. makes their money.

    Reply: Huh, PP is making money off my Saturday night activities? Wait, who pays them? When do they collect the money? How come I am doing the nasty and they are getting my money? Maybe you should rethink this.

    If you LOVED your partner and LOVED yourself you might be thinking…..oh, I don't know….FAMILY not ABORTIONS. Perhaps the definition of promiscuity might help you out. "engaging in casual and indiscriminate sex" (syn. promiscuous, sleeping around). Actually in the dictionary. For this lifestyle to be condoned for pre teens or anyone may seem like a normal developmental passage to many but controlling our bodies and taking accountability for ourselves is called maturity.

    Reply: No thank you. I will have all the earth shaking sex I want to have, use contraception, and if I have an unwanted pregnancy, I may choose to have an abortion. I will never marry or be beholden to one man. So many men, so little time. I live in my own house, with my money and my children. Men are just dessert.

    We actually try to instill that into our kids and the beauty of human nature is that it's never to late to correct negative behavior, seek forgiveness and change. Trying to live the lie of "all sex is ok" is bogus. Are we supposed to believe that the whole "friends with benefits" and oral sex is safe sex, is responsible behavior? Is is "safe" only because no baby results? Or if you glove up enough or use enough lotions etc., you won't get disease?

    Reply: Yep, sex is dangerous. I personally got teenagers.

    THere is a time, place and maturity level that comes with this most benevolent gift from our creator. Any other use is immature and yields consequences that can not be sucked away at planned parenthood. Wise up.

    Reply:
    I like sex.I have had lots of men and women for about 45 years now. I got not one STD. You abstain, I'll save France.

    Regarding the fence, it is certainly more of an eye sore to those who live in this neighborhood than 5-6 people praying. It makes a statement and we have a right to object to the statement. It is offensive to our purpose. A building that looks like a jail and now has the fenced in prison yard is deplorable. It's just missing the barbed wire and it could resemble a prison camp. I am done at that plaza just due to the fact that bullet proof glass means bullets are a potential and not from prayer vigil people, but perhaps fanatics or police officers who have more power than brains.

    Reply: Sweet stuff, you are the fanatic. It's the AntiChoice side that calls folks murderers and bombs clinics. Please.

    So many politicians and business people want to play this two ways, all caving to P.P. and their rhetoric. This movement made a statement when we only had access to a sidewalk and can continue to do that. The city and P.P. want us to disband, this is only the beginning. This clinic is no different than the one in downtown Aurora. Both sides were present on a daily basis and that will continue. Anyone that does not like it should chastise P.P. for their choice in location and mode of misconduct with a stealth mode business plan.

    Reply: What misconduct? No misconduct was found.

    The point of that fence was to be able to arrest us for trespassing…period. The downside is that the city(allowing that eye sore despite it does not meet the standard)…is a new precedent they seem to be setting. The other downside is that the entire community can see that fence and think it is keeping out the fanatic prayer minded, peaceful protesters. It's a war of public opinion, planned parenthood knows that. That fence is the "protesters fault" they would assert. To me it just shows how intolerent and dismissive our neighbors are to our right to speak/pray and have a presence at that location. No surprise there.

    Reply:
    How can you be arrested for trespassing if you are not inside the fence? Huh? Sweet, your stance becomes more unpopular with sane moderate Americans by the day and hour. Keep up the good work.

    October 15th, 2007 at 7:24 am
  267. Elizabet says:

    John, that is GREAT that you compare pro-lifers to Bin Laden. Except I am not a mindless person, the people who follow Bin Laden are. And I'm really much more into promoting the sanctity of life, not ending it, like Bin Laden is. I don't care if someone was preaching we have to blow up all abortion clinice. I would never do it. So quit making out-of-context comparisons to suit your cause. If we really were into violence we wouldn't be out there peacefully praying. People just can't stand us because we ACTUALLY stand for something.

    October 15th, 2007 at 7:49 am
  268. Elizabeth says:

    Sounds like Frank turned into CherryRose here. That's too bad. If she/he really does have children, I feel bad for those kids that have such a poor role model.

    October 15th, 2007 at 7:52 am
  269. John says:

    Elizabeth –

    "John, that is GREAT that you compare pro-lifers to Bin Laden. Except I am not a mindless person, the people who follow Bin Laden are."

    No silly…I am bringing up the idea that what may be true to one person is not true to another.

    How many followers of Bin Laden do you know personally?

    To call any human being "mindless" whom you've never met…

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:05 am
  270. Paul2 says:

    John,
    Are you the same John who had POST 194 on the topic
    “Mayor Ignores Citizens and Aldermen”? Your comments to Renee were
    "If there was only no rape or incest in the world then I would probalbly say away w/ abortion…I just couldn't stomach the fact of a woman having to have a child after being raped…"?

    What you are saying there would get us to sympathize with you over reational dialogue and agree that women have a right not to have sex forced upon her. This right to choose not to have sex is in fact her fundamental right "choice". That is one reason why rational people can sympathize with the women who got pregnant through rape and incest. Cause she was denied that right to choice. If she is not given that choice then she should be allowed to have abortions.

    But then I see your POST#264 on this blog:

    "You guys are so funny who think we are out there "terrorizing" women. If you call speaking the truth is terrorism then I guess we are."

    I'm sure Bin Laden tells his supporters and his opposition the "truth" also and we call it terrorism don't we?

    Truth is in the eye of the beholder."

    Either there are two "John's" or you are less then genuine in your posts. Can you please explain thsi inconsistency. If your response is less then genuine then that would make you a PP troll who is just here to deceive us and waste our time like FOM, Frank, and "Real Christian".

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:26 am
  271. Paul2 says:

    Oh and Elizabeth. Thanks for adding "cherry rose" to the ignore list.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:29 am
  272. John says:

    See Post #252

    "You guys are so funny who think we are out there "terrorizing" women. If you call speaking the truth is terrorism then I guess we are."

    This appears in quotes w/in my post…I had quoted this from Elizabeth…her strong words led me to come to the conclusion that I did…

    Truth is in the eye of the beholder…How could I consider myself any better or worse than a common person in the Middle East just because they believe their truths that they are taught by Bin Laden or whomever….

    And yes I am the same person…and no I am not being a Troll

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:35 am
  273. Jerry Nickels says:

    On the one hand the chat room mentality that emerges on these blogs has a downside in that all sorts of poorly thought out, disengenuous, or downright nasty comments emerge that can serve to take the focus off the issue at hand. But then on the other hand now we are made all the more aware of the real pain and confusion out there.

    This "fence" blog has really exposed the culture war in our country and shows where the battle lines are drawn. One could say the fence serves to metaphorically represent the barriers people erect to disengage themselves from one another in ways spiritual and intellectual.

    May God bless those of you who engage in discussions with bloggers that have no intention to be sincere, open, and intellectually honest. You reach out to them but are usually met with derision and insincerity. It is an unfortunate reality that the "trolls" and other misguided folks are out there and want to disrupt us in any way they can.

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:06 am
  274. Ramir San Diego says:

    I handed our Dominick's cards yesterday at the Customer Service desk (after the Rosary) and was advised to wait until I talk to the manager (Mr. Vick Carlson).

    We had a very polite chat about the Fence/issue in his office and I had to re-iterate to him that we are NOT against him personally (I actually felt sorry for the guy)…but his corporate office made a bad move by caving in to PP's bullying.

    I just ended it with "..until that fence goes down, we won't be shopping here again…"

    On my way back to the car, It got me thinking… Dominick's/ Safeway is REALLY feeling the effect of this boycott for the manager to personally try to talk to each shopper turning in their card…and It's only Saturday afternoon!

    MONEY talks people…let's keep up the pressure….

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:24 am
  275. Ramir San Diego says:

    And for those who have not read this HONEST, medical and scientific findings on the effects of abortion on women conducted by a Pro-abort researcher in New Zealand, please do so now:

    http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/feb/060210a.html

    Now, why can't we have that kind of honest research here?

    WE always seem to end up with those that skew their findings to suit their political idealogy.

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:31 am
  276. John says:

    "Dominick's/ Safeway is REALLY feeling the effect of this boycott for the manager to personally try to talk to each shopper turning in their card…"

    So if you actually got Dominick's to shut down…

    have you stopped to think about this possiblity… the single parent mother employeed by Dominick's who's child that she did not abort gets let go due to cut backs from your boycott. Why should she and her child suffer…

    I've said it once and I'll say it again…

    How could any good Christian subscribe to the idea of an eye for an eye…or that the ends justify the means?

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:39 am
  277. Ramir San Diego says:

    Pls Re-read my post:

    "I just ended it with "..until that fence goes down, we won't be shopping here again…" "

    The intention is NOT to shut down Dominick's…the intention is for them to RE-THINK their decision about the fence and giving in to PP's demands.

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:56 am
  278. John says:

    "The intention is NOT to shut down Dominick's…the intention is for them to RE-THINK their decision about the fence and giving in to PP's demands."

    So if they were forced to close due to your boycott, would you begin shopping there again?

    Another question…in your above quote you refer to "them" to Re-Think thier decision. Who is/are "them"? And do you think "they" care if some bagger or register clerk gets let go due to profits being lossed?

    Just like in wars… The people who end up being affected the most are the ones who want nothing to do w/ it.

    October 15th, 2007 at 10:12 am
  279. CherryRose says:

    Elizabeth says:
    Sounds like Frank turned into CherryRose here.

    Reply: I am myself. Frank doesn't need any help from me. Paranoid much?

    That's too bad. If she/he really does have children, I feel bad for those kids that have such a poor role model.

    Reply: You have no way of knowing what kind of role model I am to my children. I have three daughters ages 44, 18 and 20. We are all prochoice. Safe amd legal abortion and contraception are the cornerstones of women's and children's health and liberty. Countries without safe and legal abortion have famine and the murder of street children. You and others like you will not turn America into a third world country.

    October 15th, 2007 at 10:27 am
  280. Laura K. says:

    My problem, with Safeway, is that they applied for the permit for the fence one day after the whining from Planned Parenthood, then lied to Eric about letting him if any decision was to be made. Essentially, they caved in to the lies from PP. NOW, It's my money, and I can shop where I want to. The dishonesy that Safeway has shown, and the erection of the fence during the night has shown me one thing: I CANNOT and WILL NOT WARRANT SUPPORT FOR THIS TYPE OF BUSINESS. It's my "CHOICE". I cannot believe for the life of me why it would upset a corporation this much to have the presence of maybe 10-20 people praying and offering support to CONFUSED and HURT girls on their property.

    October 15th, 2007 at 10:30 am
  281. Dennis R. says:

    Re: The Fence.

    1) IMO, Safeway/Dominick's is in a no-win situation. Any corporate attorney who saw that lot filled with protesters would *cringe* at the liability exposure. If I were CEO of a public corporation like Safeway, it would be my fiduciary responsibility to my shareholders to lower my lawsuit exposure. In the real world that probably means a fence. I think the problem here is much more a "Don't Play Lawsuit Lottery" issue than Safeway taking sides in this mess. Taking sides in this debate would be just plain bad business.

    2) I'd therefore suggest that boycotting them may be counter-productive at this point. Perhaps a more useful approach is for Eric or someone representing the organization to ask for a sit-down with a representative of Safeway/Dominick's. They have a need to reduce lawsuit exposure. We would like access to that lot. It seems to me the possibilities include:

    a) Lease the lot from Safeway, as someone suggested above. Form a 501(c)(3) ("Pisces Partnership?"), put some board members on it, take donations to pay the lease, don't let it acquire any real assets. Lawyers don't like to sue organizations with no "pockets."

    b) Buy the lot, build an Abortion Alternatives facility, let the parking lot face the PP facility. I'm willing to bet the purchase price would be quite affordable, since this lot is currently a no-win albatross for Safeway. PP is the only other outfit I can imagine wanting that property.

    Let's not be hasty in making Safeway/Dominick's into an "enemy." Let's not just gripe and complain — their problem is yet more fallout from PP's lies. A boycott gives them no way to "win." A solution that solves their liability problem and protesters' need for a place to protest would meet everyone's needs.

    If it turns out Safeway isn't interested in some sort of "win-win" solution to the problem, that's the time to boycott. Let's try working with them to find a mutually beneficial solution first.

    Dennis R.

    October 15th, 2007 at 10:32 am
  282. FOM says:

    Have you seen the person on the Dominic's website? It's Melissa Etheredge. YOu guys think for one minute they really care what at best is a few hundred disgruntled fundies have to say? Keep it up.

    October 15th, 2007 at 10:35 am
  283. Ocean says:

    "Rebecca says:
    Let me take a crack at promiscuous sex…..Sex that does not involve love, commitment or responsibility to any consequences that may arise….like a relationship or a pregnancy. Lets be honest, that style of sex is out there and it's how P.P. makes their money. "

    *****

    And ALL of the above is a big SO WHAT. Women can decide for OURSELVES under what circumstances we can and will have sex. We do NOT require lectures from religious prolifers who seem to believe they have a "right" to tell us when sex is "acceptable." We like to have sex whenever we please, usually with reliable contraception in place, and although we do not prefer to have an abortion, are grateful the legal option is there. Whether you or anyone else likes that or not is irrelevant. Thank DOMINICK'S for the fence!

    "Rebecca says:
    If you LOVED your partner and LOVED yourself you might be thinking…..oh, I don't know….FAMILY not ABORTIONS."

    ********

    Hate to break this to you, but there are many heterosexual MARRIED couples who choose to remain childFREE, which means NO kids, EVER, by choice. Which means these married women will also be using contraception, getting a tubal, if that's their decision, or aborting if a pregnancy results and they DON'T want to be pregnant. PP serves their purposes very well too, and many of us use their facilities. Did I tell you I LOVE Dominick's?

    Bottom line; it isn't up to YOU or anyone else to tell ME or anyone else when and under what circumstances having sex is acceptable. For me, sex is wonderful, pregnancy is a curse. Which is why I regularly use contraception, to PREVENT the curse of an unwanted pregnancy. Thank you, PP!

    October 15th, 2007 at 10:46 am
  284. Laura K. says:

    Furthermore, I will not offer my support to ANY business in the Safeway leased business park on the corner of Eola & New York st. I will take my business elswhere…There are too many other businesses that don't slap our community in the face to shop at!! (i.e., Naperville, Oswego, Montgomery, etc.)

    October 15th, 2007 at 10:51 am
  285. Dennis R. says:

    A bit of troll feeding, with apologies to Eric:

    1) CherryRose, "Countries without safe and legal abortion have famine and the murder of street children." Before 1973, did we have famines and the murder of street children in the U.S.? Were these things less common in CA, CO, and NY, which had more liberal abortion laws than other states before Roe v. Wade? In the Republic of Ireland (not Northern Ireland, which is in the UK), the lives of unborn children are specifically protected by their constitution. How common are famine and the murder of street children in Ireland?

    Believe it or not, human civilization is possible without legalized abortion. Believe it or not, the United States was not a Third World country before 1973.

    I'm not going to be dragged into an endless and pointless argument. Rhetoric like this shows no desire to engage in a constructive dialogue. But you insist that the pro-choice side has the "rational and intelligent" people. So you might consider laying off rhetoric that betrays such ignorance of history and sociology. You'll look more rational and intelligent that way.

    Dennis R.

    October 15th, 2007 at 11:01 am
  286. Patricia says:

    FOM:
    If a heart is beating and intentionally stopped that human being is dead.
    If that isnt called murder than what is it?

    All senseless murder is an atrocity.

    No life from conception to natural death is more valuable than the other.

    Planned parenthood murders more humans in 1 wk. than all the lives that have been lost in the Iraqi war so far. If that isnt evil what is it?

    October 15th, 2007 at 11:54 am
  287. Eric Scheidler says:

    Cherry Rose writes: "Please explain what makes 'typical anti choice violence' a personal attack when we are discussing a GROUP of political activists who have engaged in bombing, intimidation, and murder?"

    Cherry Rose, if I'm part of a group that has engaged in violence, then so are you. I've personally been splashed in the face with black dye by pro-choice activists. My colleague John was thrown to the ground this summer in downtown Chicago by a pro-choicer.

    But I don't consider you part of a violent group. In my experience violence by pro-choicers against pro-lifers is more common (if less reported in the media) than vice versa, but neither is "typical"; both are rare.

    Our protest here in Aurora has been manifestly peaceful. It is nothing but a smear-attempt to suggest that we are going to engage in "typical anti-choice violence"—the intent is to disparage our characters, whether individually or as a group, and therefore will not be tolerated.

    I hope that explains my position.

    By the way, that's a curious list: "bombing, intimidation, and murder." I'm reminded of Sesame Street—"one of these things is not like the others."

    What is "intimidation"? It means literally, "to make timid". I've seen people on the Daily Kos talking about how they're scared to put up a yard sign. They feel intimidated by all those pro-life yard signs, but does it follow that someone is guilty of "intimidating" them? Is putting up a pro-life yard sign an act of intimidation?

    My dad once wrote "choose life" on the back of his business card and left it at the reception desk of an abortion clinic. That card was construed as intimidation—a threat of violence no less!—during the NOW v. Scheidler case. Ridiculous.

    "Intimidation" is so ambiguous and subjective—perhaps that's why you included it in your list. You know we're not killing or bombing anyone, but you can make it sound that way if you throw "intimidation" in there.

    If any action I take makes one person feel timid in any sense, why, then I'm guilty of "intimidation" and you can throw me in there with the list of those who "bomb, murder and intimidate"!

    Nice try.

    October 15th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
  288. John says:

    "If a heart is beating and intentionally stopped that human being is dead. If that isnt called murder than what is it?"

    In that case since the heart does not start fully functioning (having all four chambers and pumping blood through the circulatory system) until the 5th week of pregnancy does that mean abortion before this is ok?

    I'm sure some here would say no…

    What qualifies being alive? Is it a heart beating…neurological function…having a soul or spirit?

    October 15th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
  289. Patricia says:

    John,

    It was never my intention to imply that abortion is acceptable before 5 wks of pregnancy

    I believe no one on this earth which our Lord created, has the right to end the life of any human being which He created in His likeness.

    From conception to natural death, life is sacred and only He who created us has the right to take a life.

    Abortion has brought about a culture of death which uncivilizes a civilized nation.

    As a female, I speak from the heart when I say that the evil of abortion has used females as pawns against their own flesh and blood.

    October 15th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
  290. Dennis R. says:

    FOM: "Have you seen the person on the Dominic's website? It's Melissa Etheredge. You guys think for one minute they really care what at best is a few hundred disgruntled fundies have to say? Keep it up."

    So many grotesque errors, so little time.

    1) Dominick's put Melissa Etheredge on its webpage to promote breast cancer awareness and research. Since she had breast cancer recently, you might conclude that's why they chose her. You might also conclude they are not endorsing any other political views she may or may not have, since that's usually how it works with celebrity spokespeople.

    Therefore they don't care what pro-life people think? Eminently logical! The next time you see me listening to "Thinking About Tomorrow" by Fleetwood Mac, will you also conclude I voted for Bill Clinton? After all, it was the theme song for his presidential campaigns!

    Some more rational thoughts:

    a) Corporations exist to make money.
    b) Alienating customers is bad for corporations.
    c) Married couples with kids buy more groceries than single people.
    d) Married people are therefore a key market for grocery stores.
    e) Married people are more likely to express pro-life opinions than single people. ("Those who are married are much more likely than unmarried people to say it would be a good thing to reduce the number of abortions (by 66%-50%)." http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=253)
    f) Conclusion: not caring about people who dislike abortion is bad business for a grocery store.

    2) "A few hundred disgruntled fundies."
    a) Many of those who protest abortion are Roman Catholics. I have a Masters Degree in theology; I've never heard anyone call Catholics "fundies." You really ought to pick your tendentious terms more carefully.
    b) The pro-life protests in Aurora alone have drawn more than "a few hundred" pro-life people. To my knowledge, there have never been "a few hundred" pro-PP protesters there.
    c) If Aurora is on the national averages, 41% of residents believe that abortion should be illegal in all cases, or all cases except rape, incest, or the life of the mother. (See the Pew Research link above.) If Aurora has 125,000 people, that means 50,000 people in Aurora are very clearly pro-life. "A few hundred fundies" indeed!
    d) 23% will say abortion should be "more limited" than it is now.
    e) 35% of people will say that abortion should be "generally available" — the "clearly pro-choice" people.

    "Clearly pro-life" people outnumber those who are clearly pro-choice. A significant majority of the population believes abortion should either be illegal, or more limited than it is now.

    Since married people are more pro-life than unmarried people, and married people have more children than unmarried people, and since people with kids buy more groceries … what, in your opinion, is the best thing for Safeway to do? Ignore the people who almost certainly give them over half of their total business?

    Who exactly is the minority, and who is the extremist?

    Dennis R.

    October 15th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
  291. John says:

    Fair enough Patricia…

    Then still I ask this to you and of course everyone else…what contstitutes life?

    A heart beat, neurological function, breathing, having a spirit/soul…I'm not sure what is considering living?

    October 15th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
  292. John says:

    Fair enough Patricia…

    Then still I ask this to you and of course everyone else…what contstitutes life?

    A heart beat, neurological function, breathing, having a spirit/soul…I'm not sure what the definition of being alive is?

    October 15th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
  293. Dennis R. says:

    FOM: "Have you seen the person on the Dominic's website? It's Melissa Etheredge. You guys think for one minute they really care what at best is a few hundred disgruntled fundies have to say? Keep it up."

    So many errors, so little time.

    1) Dominick's puts Melissa Etheredge on its webpage to promote Breast Cancer donations. Since she had breast cancer recently, you might conclude that's why they chose her. You might also conclude they are not endorsing any other political views she may or may not have, since that's usually how it works with celebrity spokespeople.

    Therefore they don't care what pro-life people think? Eminently reasonable thinking there!

    2) "A few hundred disgruntled fundies."
    a) Many who protest abortion are Roman Catholics. I have a Masters Degree in theology; I've never heard anyone call Catholics "fundies." You really ought to pick your tendentious terms more carefully.
    b) The pro-life protests in Aurora alone have drawn more than "a few hundred" pro-life people. To my knowledge, there have never been "a few hundred" pro-PP protesters there.
    c) If Aurora is on the national averages, 41% of residents believe that abortion should be illegal in all cases, or all cases except rape, incest, or the life of the mother. (See the Pew Research link above.) If Aurora has 125,000 people, that means 50,000 people in Aurora are very clearly pro-life. "A few hundred fundies" indeed!
    d) 23% will say abortion should be "more limited" than it is now.
    e) 35% of people will say that abortion should be "generally available" — the "clearly pro-choice" people.

    "Clearly pro-life" people outnumber those who are clearly pro-choice. A significant majority of the population believes abortion should either be illegal, or more limited than it is now.

    So … who exactly is the minority? Who is the extremist?

    Dennis R.

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
  294. Patricia says:

    CherryRose states:"You have no way of knowing what kind of role model I am to my children. I have three daughters ages 44, 18 and 20. We are all prochoice. Safe amd legal abortion and contraception are the cornerstones of women's and children's health and liberty."

    I have grown married daughters of my own, and I certainly wouldnt call myself a decent role model to them if I had taught them to put their own selfish desires before others, especially of the life growing within them when they were pregnant.

    I thank Jesus every single day that we are all pro life.

    To call contraception, and safe/legal abortion the cornerstones of womens and childrens health is a total mockery.
    Both of these go against the normal function of a femlaes body.

    Healthcare heals and treats, abortion kills.

    To teach our daughters that it is 'perfectly normal' to allow their own sons or daughters to be brutally ripped from their bodies, because it is a legal right does not make it moral.

    As parents I believe the most important gift a parent can give to their daughters is to bring these girls up with morals, a loving heart, respect for themselves and for life in general.

    Abortion goes against everything that is moral, strips females of self respect, hardens their hearts etc.

    Look at all the statistics. Females who have aborted are more likely to abuse their children.

    Roe V Wade is an evil law founded on untruths, which is spreading its evil though out our entire, city and country.

    If our Lord can change the heart of Jane Roe who has been trying to get Roe V Wade reversed, He can change the heart of every prochoice person out there!

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
  295. John says:

    "Look at all the statistics. Females who have aborted are more likely to abuse their children."

    I wonder how much more abuse would have happened if they had all their children?

    C'mon now this stat is a little silly now isn't it?

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
  296. Patricia says:

    John,

    I will never attempt to play God as so many sceintists do.

    He created us, and I would think that His intention is from the moment of conception that life has started and has been given the soul that will eventually and hopefully share Gods kingdom for eternity.

    I dont feel I have the right to judge or question His plan.

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
  297. John says:

    "I will never attempt to play God as so many sceintists do."

    Are these the same scientists/MDs that take care of you when you are ill, go to the hospital, God forbid ever need surgery?

    Are they playing God?

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
  298. Patricia says:

    John,

    We were speaking about when life begins, and that is what I was refering to when I said scientists try to play God.

    I do not believe they will or can understand His full plan regarding conception and the start of life.

    Let's not play mindgames and get into other fields.

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
  299. John says:

    Patricia…my original question was not when does life begin?

    POST #291

    "Then still I ask this to you and of course everyone else…what contstitutes life?

    A heart beat, neurological function, breathing, having a spirit/soul…I'm not sure what the definition of being alive is?"

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
  300. bernice says:

    Satanic cult people, witchcraft people, and Hitler believe in human mutilation (abortion) geez, i sure wouldn't want to believe in what those people believe in..abortion comes from the deepest part of hell,,,society accepts abortion for the ignorant fact that it is taught in medical schools,,,ya well satan works through doctors,God have mercy on their souls,,,My sister was told last year by a doctor that she had to get an abortion because the baby was not healthy,,,,she did not listen to the ignorant man,,,in April of this year she gave birth to a beautiful healthy big cheeks sprakling blue eyes blond hair smiling baby boy…..that doctor oughta not pratice.

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
  301. Patricia says:

    I would say that this statistic sadly speaks for itself.

    Abortion hasn't helped prevent crime against children. Since abortion was legalized in 1973, the number of reported cases of child abuse has increased by 1,497%, from 167,000 in 1973 to 2.5 million in 1991.
    "… elective abortion is an important cause of child abuse… Recent evidence indicates many women harbour strong guilt feelings long after their abortions. Guilt is one important cause of child battering and infanticide. Abortion lowers women's self-esteem and there are studies reporting a major loss of self-esteem in battering parents…."

    Sources
    1. US Department of Health & Human Services
    2. William J. Bennett. The Index of Leading Cultural Indicators.
    published jointly by Empower America and The Heritage Foundation, 1993,
    vol 1, p. 6.
    3. P. Ney, M.D. "Relationship between Abortion and Child Abuse." Canada

    October 15th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
  302. John says:

    "Abortion hasn't helped prevent crime against children."

    Was that why they legalized abortion…to stop child abuse?

    "the number of reported cases of child abuse has increased by 1,497%, from 167,000 in 1973 to 2.5 million in 1991."

    Two comments I feel I need to make on this…

    1. these statistics were completed a decade and a half ago

    2. how is there any direct coorelation between abortions and abusive parents?

    Are you telling me that the only reason there are mothers w/ poor self esteem is because they've had previous abortions? And since they now have this poor self-esteem from their abortions that they now beat their future children…I'm confused.

    October 15th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
  303. Patricia says:

    Day 1: fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins.

    Sources:
    Bergel, Gary (Produced by NRLC) "When You Were Formed in Secret." 1998.

    Flanagan, Geraldine Lux. Beginning Life. The Marvelous Journey from Conception to Birth. New York: DK Publishing Inc., 1996.

    Hopson, Janet L. Fetal Psychology. Oct. 1998. 07 Jan 2003.

    October 15th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
  304. Eric Scheidler says:

    New Numbers for Dominick's/Safeway

    People have been having trouble getting through to the numbers for Dominick's and Safeway above. Here are some updated numbers:

    Dominick's Corporate Office: 630-891-5000
    (Hit "1" for public affairs.)

    Dominick's Customer Comments: 877-723-3929
    (Hit "0" to get to the comments operator.)

    I called the Dominick's comment line a little while ago, and Fernando told me they've been getting a lot of calls on this today. More than they got complaints from PP, I'll warrant.

    I also talked to Victor Carlson a few minutes ago. He's a pretty good guy and this is very hard on him. I'd encourage everyone to call the corporate numbers above.

    October 15th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
  305. Lucia says:

    It is good thing do not shope over there at Dominic's, But our faith can be stopped by a Fence? of course not, God is greater than a fence and the whole humanity together. We can show them with our prayers and fasting He can through all fences ans stop murders of those innocent babies. How the communist countries fell apart? with ROSARY prayer started in Poland.

    October 15th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
  306. Jason says:

    Patricia;

    Actually, pregnancy can result even when someone practices abstinence. IE Rape.

    October 15th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
  307. Lucia says:

    LIFE IN THE UNITED STATES
    While those on the side of Almighty God and His Blessed Mother try to spread her "peace from Heaven", the forces of evil are meeting with even greater success in their efforts, to draw men into sin and Our Lady said at Fatima Portugal (1917), that "Wars are a punishment from God for sin".
    Everywhere in this country there has been a tremendous increase in ABORTION, divorces, birth control, inmorality, paganism, materialism, and secularism. Pope Pius XII once said: "The greatets sin of our generation is that it has lost all sense of sin".
    How true these words are becomes apparent when the statements of Jacinta (one of the visionaries 1917 shepperd and 7 years old) concerning immorality are recalled, and we see that in the United States.
    At least 1.5 million SURGICAL ABORTIONS are performed every year in the United States – one out of every four pregnancies (Abortion is murder and murder is one of the "Four Sins Crying to Heaven for Vengance">) Thus in one year, twice as many Americans are killed through abortion as in all the wars of U.S. history. Every 11 days more children are aborted than American men were killed in the 11 yar-long Vietnam War, every 10 weeks the number totals the number of American war dead in World War II. Every five hours and 15 minutes there are 900 abortions in the United States; each year abortion kills as many as a combined populations of Kansas City, Minneapolis and Miami. Surgical abortion is the most common operation performed in the United States today, three times as common as ton silectomies. In addition, there are millions of silent abortions caused by the most commonly used (low dosage) birth control pill, the IUD, the morning-after pill, "mesntrual extraction" and self-aborting vaginal suppositories. In America the pregnancy rate is high, but the birthrate is very low.
    2. One out of every two marriages ends in divorce 50% – with resultant broken homes, misery for children etc.
    3. Advocates of birth control – insisting that children are a burden and not a blessing – are successfully inducing millions of youn couples to use contraceptives. They say in effect that God can create life but cannot provide for it. Is is estimated that 1/3 of couples married 10 years or more have been voluntarily sterilized.
    Taked from Our Lady of Fatima's plan from haven TAN Books page 15-16

    October 15th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
  308. bernice says:

    lucia i'm with you on that..if that's the only ammunition that the devil has is a fence he's hurtin',,,

    October 15th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
  309. Dennis R. says:

    My link to Pew Research study didn't survive in my previous post.

    Here it is.

    Dennis R.

    October 15th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
  310. Jane Celeste says:

    Someone today asked me- "What would a reasonable compromise be to the Dominick's Boycott?" I said that they take down the fence and place a sidewalk there instead for the many pedestrians who walk by, including those from the apartment complex and townhomes nearby!! This would significantly lessen any liability issues- and we'd be back shopping at Dominick's! A Win Win indeed!

    Jane

    October 15th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
  311. Johnathan says:

    "At least 1.5 million SURGICAL ABORTIONS are performed every year in the United States – one out of every four pregnancies (Abortion is murder and murder is one of the "Four Sins Crying to Heaven for Vengance">) Thus in one year, twice as many Americans are killed through abortion as in all the wars of U.S. history. Every 11 days more children are aborted than American men were killed in the 11 yar-long Vietnam War, every 10 weeks the number totals the number of American war dead in World War II. Every five hours and 15 minutes there are 900 abortions in the United States"

    –Oh my gosh…could you imagine if all those babies were born…how long would it be till overpopulation caused us to use up all of our resources and completely destroy this beautiful earth God gave us?

    October 15th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
  312. Kirk says:

    Jonathan,

    We really don't have a problems with over-population in this country. If it wasn't for immigration there would be a serious population shortage and no one willing to perform ALOT of important occupations.
    Also, the population deficit is going to come back to haunt us as the babyboomers want to retire and find out that there aren't enough young people paying into social security.

    October 15th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
  313. Paul says:

    Responding to:

    # 281 Dennis R. says:
    Re: The Fence.

    1) IMO, Safeway/Dominick's is in a no-win situation. Any corporate attorney who saw that lot filled with protesters would *cringe* at the liability exposure. If I were CEO of a public corporation like Safeway, it would be my fiduciary responsibility to my shareholders to lower my lawsuit exposure. In the real world that probably means a fence. I think the problem here is much more a "Don't Play Lawsuit Lottery" issue than Safeway taking sides in this mess. Taking sides in this debate would be just plain bad business.

    The liability issue (and I ask liable for what? A few people standing on an open field?) has now been highly exacerbated because the fence on the access road in front of PP is sitting exactly on the border of the grass and the pavement. This means that the prayer supporters are standing ON the ACCESS ROAD itself. This is a potentially hazardous situation.
    The ACCESS ROAD IS OWNED BY DOMINICK'S / SAFEWAY. Therefore, they are putting themselves in a real and far greater liability situation, if anyone is injured by vehicles driving onto their property.

    Dominick's / Safeway was not concerned with the public safety issue until PP opened. Per Eric in the story above:

    (T)hey cite public safety concerns do to the recent activity in the area. Of course, we've been out there, occasionally setting foot on that lot, since August 9. All of a sudden, two days after Planned Parenthood opens and realizes we might have an impact on their business, it's a public safety concern.

    2) I'd therefore suggest that boycotting them may be counter-productive at this point. Perhaps a more useful approach is for Eric or someone representing the organization to ask for a sit-down with a representative of Safeway/Dominick's. They have a need to reduce lawsuit exposure. We would like access to that lot. It seems to me the possibilities include:

    Eric was in contact with Dominick's corporate representatives, but he was lied to by them (see above story). A lawyer representing us would be the appropriate way to communicate with Dominick's/Safeway if that is even necessary. At this time, boycotting is a very effective way to send a message. I predict there will be thousands who will boycott Dominick's locally, and perhaps many will boycott the Safeway stores in other states.

    a) Lease the lot from Safeway, as someone suggested above. Form a 501(c)(3) ("Pisces Partnership?"), put some board members on it, take donations to pay the lease, don't let it acquire any real assets. Lawyers don't like to sue organizations with no "pockets."

    There really is no liability issue. An empty lot is not a dangerous place to stand. As far as leasing it from Safeway, I seriously doubt they would consider that. Even if they did, the rent might be prohibitive. It may be worth looking into as a last resort. Are you going to contribute to the funds needed to lease the lot?

    b) Buy the lot, build an Abortion Alternatives facility, let the parking lot face the PP facility. I'm willing to bet the purchase price would be quite affordable, since this lot is currently a no-win albatross for Safeway. PP is the only other outfit I can imagine wanting that property.

    This is too early to start raising the kind of money to purchase that lot, IF it were even up for sale. The other issue to consider would be the Aurora Zoning committee: Would they allow a Crisis Pregnancy Center to be located there? I bet they would try to prevent any such type of place being built there, unless and until the city administration is voted out and pro-life friendly candidates are elected. This is all conjecture at this point. The boycott is the easiest way to send a message right now, and boycotts have a history of being very effective. Will you contribute to the funds needed to purchase the lot?

    Let's not be hasty in making Safeway/Dominick's into an "enemy." Let's not just gripe and complain — their problem is yet more fallout from PP's lies. A boycott gives them no way to "win." A solution that solves their liability problem and protesters' need for a place to protest would meet everyone's needs.

    No one is making them an enemy. They have chosen to cave-in to the complaints of a few PP employees and supporters, rather than remain neutral. Perhaps PP threatened to sue them, which is quite possible.

    As far as "winning", Jane Celeste Fonner put forth a good idea (See # 308) for Safeway / Dom's: remove the (illegal) fence and build a sidewalk along the access road on the vacant lot side for pedestrians walking from their homes in the nearby subdivision which will help protect their safety. Prayer supporters can use the sidewalk as well to pray and offer free assistance.
    That's a win-win situation for everyone.

    If it turns out Safeway isn't interested in some sort of "win-win" solution to the problem, that's the time to boycott. Let's try working with them to find a mutually beneficial solution first.

    As you ought to know, Eric Scheidler WAS in contact with Dominick's corporation before the fence went up. He is probably still communicating with them. He is the one that suggested the boycott. Everyone can decide what they want to do about. I encourage you to try to talk with Dominick's corporate representatives if you think that will change the situation. Everyone should at least register their opinion with
    Dominick's corporation via the above contact phone numbers (during business hours 8:00 am to 4:30 pm) and/or to write to the corporate heads of Dominick's and Safeway.

    October 15th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
  314. Johnathan says:

    Kirk says,

    "We really don't have a problems with over-population in this country. If it wasn't for immigration there would be a serious population shortage and no one willing to perform ALOT of important occupations."

    Kirk – I was referring to natural resources/pollution/global warming issues in regards to our overpopulation. I am not talking about occupational and economic shortages.

    When speaking about overpopulation it should also been done in regards to the whole planet and the human race…not just Americans.

    October 15th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
  315. Eric Scheidler says:

    Paul writes: "Eric was in contact with Dominick's corporate representatives, but he was lied to by them. . . . He is the one that suggested the boycott."

    I want to clarify a couple things here.

    • I did not say I was lied to. I only said I did not receive the communication from Dominick's I was led to believe I would.
    • I have not used the "B" word. I have only said that I won't be shopping at Dominick's, and invited others to consider what their own response should be.
    October 15th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
  316. Kirk says:

    Jonathan said "Kirk – I was referring to natural resources/pollution/global warming issues in regards to our overpopulation. …When speaking about overpopulation it should also been done in regards to the whole planet and the human race…not just Americans."

    Jonathan, I think that we can find common ground here. Global warming is real. It is a crisis. It seems that it is caused in large part by pollution. I question the assertion, however, that "overpopulation" causes, or is even related to pollution. Pollution is caused by overconsumption, inefficient use of natural resources, and a disregard for the planet. These problems would still plague the planet whether the population increased or decreased. Some countries that many would consider to be overpopulated do not contribute nearly as much pollution as does our country (which I believe we seem to agree has a population deficit) What I am trying to say (perhaps not very well)is that it isn't HOW MANY people are using natural resources, but the question is HOW those resources are being used.

    October 15th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
  317. Paul2 says:

    John,
    I am glad that your post that you would do away with abortion except in the case of rape and incest was genuine. I am definitely down on that. It just didn't follow logically to me that all of your other posts were against any kind of restriction on abortion.

    As I struggled with this issue myself in the past I came to understand that a woman's right to choice really begins with the choice of consenting to intercourse. Incest and rape do take that fundamental choice away from her and I would not force a women who conceived under those circumstances to carry her baby full term. I would hope these victims would seek immediate medical attention. Science is advancing to the point where they may even be able to stop the "conception" from occuring with prompt care. This is my best answer for that hideous scenario.

    Where does life begin? That is difficult to pinpoint, but reasonable people would agree that the farther along a pregnancy gets, the more the woman's choice to an abortion should be regulated.

    Grave injustices are occuring on a daily basis because we are also living with unreasonable people. People who refuse to consider a baby in the mother's womb to be anything but a blob. (Frank from previous posts). Or people like "Ocean from post 172" who say they recognize the baby is human in the womb, but that shouldn't matter cause it is the woman's right to kill her baby as long as it is still inside her.

    We have corporations like PP that fight through the courts for the right to deliver babies to the chest, then roll a scissors up their spine until you feel the head, then jab the scissors in the babies head and open it up before pulling it out so that they can suck it's brains out. How unreasonable is that. They cannot deny that these are live babies but they still think they have a right to kill them anyway.

    WoeWoe I say…

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
  318. CherryRose says:

    Lucia says:
    It is good thing do not shope over there at Dominic's, But our faith can be stopped by a Fence? of course not, God is greater than a fence and the whole humanity together. We can show them with our prayers and fasting He can through all fences ans stop murders of those innocent babies. How the communist countries fell apart? with ROSARY prayer started in Poland.

    Reply: It's a crime to murder babies. If you know someone who murdering babies, it is your duty to call 911. Turn in that PP clinic. The cops have a hard job and they could use the laugh.
    Oh, and while you are at it you might want to picket the local fertility clinic. They flush "babies" every day, thousands of them. Turn them into the cops for murder quick! Quick!
    :: laughing ::

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
  319. unknown says:

    You guys are being irational…..why should you blame Dominicks For this, they didnt want to put a PP building right next to their store

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
  320. Paul2 says:

    Thanks for the phone numbers Eric.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
  321. Paul2 says:

    Jane Celeste, I really like your solution of putting a sidewalk there instead of that ugly fence.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
  322. Elizabeth says:

    You guys, I really, really encourage you to ignore CherryRose. Many of the things this person has said sound literally similar to that "Frank" person posting. I think this person just changed their name since some of their posts got deleted for being completely ridiculous. Just a heads up.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
  323. Patricia says:

    The majority of people who live in the Oakhurst neighborhood did not choose to have planned parenthood where they live and work~~they were never given a right or a choice to voice their opinion.

    But, these people were there before the abortion mill invaded their community, and many of these same people who do not want P.P. in their midst, also have shopped at Dominicks for many years.

    How unfortunate that Dominicks would side with P.P. who is a newcomer to this neighborhood.

    Which presents another question, why did didnt planned parenthood choose to build in an area where they would not have been surrounded by retail businesses, homes with families, and a highschool down the road?

    Why did DuPage County need another abortion mill when they already had 4?

    Evil is running rampant.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
  324. FOM says:

    Patricia says: FOM:
    If a heart is beating and intentionally stopped that human being is dead.
    If that isnt called murder than what is it?
    All senseless murder is an atrocity.
    No life from conception to natural death is more valuable than the other.
    Planned parenthood murders more humans in 1 wk. than all the lives that have been lost in the Iraqi war so far. If that isnt evil what is it?

    Abortion kills a fetus. Murder is the illegal killing of a person. Abortion is legal therefore, not murder.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
  325. Elizabeth says:

    Okay, Jonathon, I really encourage you to pick up a general biology book and read about natural selection/overpopulation issues. Whether or not you subscribe to the scientific theory of evolution, it states in that theory that overpopulation is ALWAYS an issue, because the EARTH, not just America has resources constantly being used up by all organisms. Abortion does NOTHING to curb the use of resources of this planet. People/animals die because of climate changes/diseases/etc., environments change, new resources come about all the time. It is the cycle of life. Abortion doesn't save any resources of this planet, in fact it probably uses resources because all the products of it have to be disposed of somehow, and that takes up resources from the Earth, doesn't it?

    (and I am only making this point because the section we are reading about in biology is evolution/natural selection/overpopulation kinds of things and you brougth up the overpopulation point a couple of times)

    Elizabeth

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
  326. CherryRose says:

    Patricia says:
    CherryRose states:"You have no way of knowing what kind of role model I am to my children. I have three daughters ages 44, 18 and 20. We are all prochoice. Safe amd legal abortion and contraception are the cornerstones of women's and children's health and liberty."

    I have grown married daughters of my own, and I certainly wouldnt call myself a decent role model to them if I had taught them to put their own selfish desires before others, especially of the life growing within them when they were pregnant.

    Reply: Only one of my daughters is married. The other two are 18 and 20. We have an abortion fund in case they need and/or want a safe and legal abortion. Having an unwanted child before one can actually support children is bad for very young women. I am delighted that abortion is safe, legal, and available as it was not when I was 20. I was a young fertile woman before Roe v. Wade and safe and legal abortion and contraception. Now is better for women.

    To call contraception, and safe/legal abortion the cornerstones of womens and childrens health is a total mockery.
    Both of these go against the normal function of a femlaes body.

    Reply: So does chemotherapy. It's not natural to inject poisons into the body. So you will refuse cancer treatment when/if you get cancer under the same moral premise, right?

    Healthcare heals and treats, abortion kills.

    Reply: That's what we pay the $400 for, to kill the fetus. Cheaper at twice the price.

    To teach our daughters that it is 'perfectly normal' to allow their own sons or daughters to be brutally ripped from their bodies, because it is a legal right does not make it moral.

    Reply: Women have used contraception and abortion to control reproduction since time immemorial. You just don't like it. So, don't have an abortion.

    As parents I believe the most important gift a parent can give to their daughters is to bring these girls up with morals, a loving heart, respect for themselves and for life in general.

    Reply: Agreed. Gestating a pregnancy to term when you don't want the child and can't care for it once it's born in profoundly irresponsible and immoral IMO.

    Abortion goes against everything that is moral, strips females of self respect, hardens their hearts etc.

    Reply: I see, did your abortion do that to you? Most women feel a sense of relief.

    Look at all the statistics. Females who have aborted are more likely to abuse their children.

    Reply: But you want these abusive women forced by law to give birth to children they don't want? That's sane, sure it is.

    Roe V Wade is an evil law founded on untruths, which is spreading its evil though out our entire, city and country.

    Reply: Roe v. Wade said that the state does not have a right to legislate a woman's sexual and reproductive life. If the government can mandate gestation, the government can mandate abortion. Think China. Why would you want to give the government that right when we know that, unrestricted, the US govt sterilized thousands of people against their will. As a political movement, why would you want to shoot yourselves in the foot that way. Do you hate ProLife women?

    If our Lord can change the heart of Jane Roe who has been trying to get Roe V Wade reversed, He can change the heart of every prochoice person out there!

    Reply: Money changed her mind. Her lecture fees are higher now. By the way, not all religious people are against abortion. Many religious people worked hard to promote reproductive justice before Roe v. Wade and after. Religious does not equal anti abortion.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
  327. FOM says:

    Just a quick thought, here. You people truly believe abortion is murder. So, why the heck are you not calling the cops on PP? They are murdering people in there and you stand outside with your "hats" in your hands and wave signs at them. If I thought babies were being murdered, I would be on the phone to the cops. I would be storming into that clinic, I would do everything in my power to make sure the murder stopped. What are you doing besides boycotting and waving signs at people. You are not pro life. If you really thought abortion was murder, you would be blocking the doors to the clinic with your bodies. Please explain to me how you complaining on a message board, picketing, tearing up your value care (LOL), and preaching is doing ANYTHING to save the babies that will be killed tomorrow. I like to save babies from murder and prevent it whenever I can, you people like to talk about it.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
  328. CherryRose says:

    Elizabeth says:
    You guys, I really, really encourage you to ignore CherryRose. Many of the things this person has said sound literally similar to that "Frank" person posting. I think this person just changed their name since some of their posts got deleted for being completely ridiculous. Just a heads up.

    Reply: Paranoia will destroy 'ya. Frank is not me; I am not Frank. Frank and I scare you, don't we? Awwww. I am just a nice senior lady from Philadelphia who supports safe and legal abortion and contraception. I don't bite.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
  329. Elizabeth says:

    FOM-
    Why do you spend so much time defending yourself on this pro-life website? If you are totally okay with what you believe, then be okay with it. I'm okay with what I believe, thats why I don't go on PP's websites and make comments, not that they would post them anyway. They're a little intimidated by opposition, hence why they keep putting up fences to get rid of us. Silly PP, guess they're afraid the truth might be contagious.

    Elizabeth

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
  330. FOM says:

    Elizabeth says: FOM-
    Why do you spend so much time defending yourself on this pro-life website? If you are totally okay with what you believe, then be okay with it. I'm okay with what I believe, thats why I don't go on PP's websites and make comments, not that they would post them anyway. They're a little intimidated by opposition, hence why they keep putting up fences to get rid of us. Silly PP, guess they're afraid the truth might be contagious.
    Elizabeth

    Elizabeth, howzabout you answer my question?

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
  331. Karen says:

    I remember hearing a scientist talk about global warming on the radio, he said something to the effect that NASA contributes a HUGE percent of global warming gases, pollutants into the atmosphere. He said that this a known fact but it is not talked about. Does anyone else know about what I heard? Please share it with us.

    October 15th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
  332. Maria says:

    John says:

    No silly…I am bringing up the idea that what may be true to one person is not true to another.

    That statement is a lie. There cannot be two truths. If you and I both look at the sky and the sky is blue, and I say the sky is blue and you say the sky is brown, does the color of the sky change? No, the color of the sky stays blue. And if you and I both look at the grass and the grass is green and I say the grass is green and you say the grass is purple, does the color of the grass turn purple? No, the color of the grass stays green. If something is true, it is true for everyone, not just some people. The objective facts are that a new life is created at conception. That life does not have the exact same DNA as either of his or her parents. No one has the right to extinguish an innocent life. Therefore, abortion is wrong. It's really that simple to understand.

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
  333. CherryRose says:

    Jane Celeste says:
    Someone today asked me- "What would a reasonable compromise be to the Dominick's Boycott?" I said that they take down the fence and place a sidewalk there instead for the many pedestrians who walk by, including those from the apartment complex and townhomes nearby!! This would significantly lessen any liability issues- and we'd be back shopping at Dominick's! A Win Win indeed!
    Jane

    Reply: Who would be paying for that sidewalk? Are you offering? Why would a corporate entity build a sidewalk because you don't like abortion? Are they supposed to bear the inconveniences of civil dissent for you and your pollitical movement? Why? Cheaper to put up a fence and control what they are legally responsible for: the lot.
    Further, I utilized PP when I was a young woman for low cost contraception and basic gynecologic care. The one I used did not do abortions. They did refer for abortion. Here in PA we have shortage of Ob/Gyn's and not many beds either. It's a crisis. PP is sucessful and here today because they provide low cost general obstetrics/gynecology. They were a gift to young poor single Mother's who had "chosen life" like I me.
    Why deny young fertile women in your community basic gynecology because you think eggs are babies? And if you think eggs are babies, why aren't you, as a movement, picketing fetility clinics just as fervently? Inquiring minds want to know.

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
  334. Kirk says:

    John says:
    No silly…I am bringing up the idea that what may be true to one person is not true to another.

    This is what happens when you hear the Diff'rent Strokes theme song and then build your philosophy of life around it.

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
  335. Paul2 says:

    lol

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
  336. Colleen B. says:

    I called Dominic's at store level-was on hold for 1/2 hour-expressed my disappointment with the fence, and heard, what everyone else heard. I just let him know that I would be encouraging family and friends to shop else where. After he (victor) mentioned that he did not like PP as a neighbor, I invited him to join our cause, he declined! I will be calling corporate! Oh, and I will be making my donation to the pro action league—May God Bless us all!!

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
  337. Paul2 says:

    FOM. You lied when you pretended to be staff at PP on earlier posts. So why would anyone even respond to you?
    See ya.

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
  338. Paul2 says:

    Elizabeth,
    Sorry for this post but I have got to hear Cherry Rose respond to this one.

    How many of your "fetuses" have you aborted. Or are you too ashamed to say? And where do you draw the line?
    Is late term abortion o.k with you?

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
  339. Paul2 says:

    Oh Cherry, these questions are for you.
    How many of your "fetuses" have you aborted. Or are you too ashamed to say? And where do you draw the line?
    Is late term abortion o.k with you?

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
  340. Karen says:

    If Dominicks were thinking correctly they would not have put that fence on the empty lot, because now pedestrians have to walk on the street and run the risk of getting hit by a car, especially in none favorable weather conditions.Talk about a law suit waiting to happen.

    October 15th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
  341. FOM says:

    Paul2 says: FOM. You lied when you pretended to be staff at PP on earlier posts. So why would anyone even respond to you?
    See ya.

    No, I posted the link to the guy's blog. You are just embarrassed that you thought I was a doctor. LOL.

    October 15th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
  342. Patricia says:

    To the person who said "we scare you dont we"?
    I can only speak for myself, but yes, evil has always been frightening and always will be.

    To the person who insinuated that I had an abortion~I thank Jesus that I can proudly say, that is an outright UNTRUTH. I would never allow an inncoent human being to be brutally murdered, and I did everything in my power to protect my unborn children.

    And, now that they are grown and have given us beautiful grandchildren I still do everything I possibly can to protect each of them from all harm and the evils in this world.

    A natural instinct for a mother is protect her children.

    It is not natural to allow her own flesh and blood to be murdered because she considers it her choice and right.

    Abortion is legal in our country, but it is a law which is totally immoral and evil.

    Children are a gift from our creator, these children are ours for a short time here on earth.

    I believe what we teach them, the values we instill in them, and how we live the 10 commandements is what we will be judged on.

    October 15th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
  343. Jason says:

    Maria, you unwittingly provided perfect examples of a relative truth. You may see the sky as blue and the grass as green, but a bumblebee per say will see a very different set of colors.

    Your eyes are able to pick up certain wavelengths and can't pick up others, while other animals can pick up on others but not as the same one as us.

    So no, it isn't necessarily true that it's true that the sky is blue.

    The matter of when life begins is a battle of opinions, not science.

    You need to find a point where it's possible to draw a meaningful moral line.

    October 15th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
  344. Paul2 says:

    FYI – Frank and FOM came into this blog early with sarcastice banter back and forth and it's not worth a response

    October 15th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
  345. Paul2 says:

    Thanks to all my pro-life friends on this blog. I am signing out early tonight so I can write some e-mails to Safeway corporate.

    October 15th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
  346. Paul2 says:

    Blogmaster/sysop:
    FOM misrepresented herself to me on posts 233, 241, and 243. Looking over her other previous posts I see she is also guilty of personal attacks like the one on Becca in post 30. There is no reason good people like Rebecca should have to put up with FOM's abuse.

    October 16th, 2007 at 12:06 am
  347. Paul2 says:

    Becca,
    You rock. Don't be a stranger

    October 16th, 2007 at 12:14 am
  348. FOM says:

    Please tell me what you people are going to do to stop the murdering TOMORROW in Aurora. If it's really murder, how can you people look at yourselves in the mirror if you didn't call the police or block the entrance to the clinic with your bodies.

    October 16th, 2007 at 12:27 am
  349. Paul2 says:

    Here's a cc of my first email to Safeway CEO:

    Hello Mr. Burd,

    I am writing you regarding my displeasure with the fence your cmpany erected around the vacant lot next door to Dominick’s in Aurora. You are probably aware that thousands of Aurorans have been protesting the opening of the Planned Parenthood building. Planned Parenthood CEO Steve Trombley admitted to hiding their intended occupancy in order to prevent protesting while the building was going up. This resulted in the City Council temporarily withholding their occupancy permit and a hornets nest of angry residents.

    Last Friday night a hasty decision was made to erect a huge expanse of chain link fence. The fence along the driveway on the Lakehurst side of the mall. The fence runs so close to the driveway that there is little room for pedestrian traffic without walking in the driveway. I know somebody who suggested perhaps a sidewalk along the driveway on the Oakhurst side of the mall would be a better choice then the fence. It would also discourage pro-life boycott if you put in a sidewalk instead.

    Sounds like win/win.

    Thank you for your consideration

    October 16th, 2007 at 2:16 am
  350. Paul2 says:

    Take 2 with grammatical corrections:
    Hello Mr. Burd,

    I am writing you regarding my displeasure with the fence that Safeway erected around the vacant lot next door to Dominick’s in Aurora. You are probably aware that thousands of Aurorans have been protesting the opening of the Planned Parenthood building. Planned Parenthood CEO Steve Trombley admitted to hiding their intended occupancy in order to prevent protesting while the building was going up. This resulted in the City Council temporarily withholding their occupancy permit and a hornets nest of angry residents.

    Last Friday night a hasty decision was made to erect a huge expanse of chain link fence around the vacant lot across the driveway from the Planned Parenthood building. The fence along the driveway on the Lakehurst side of the mall runs so close to the driveway that there is little room for pedestrian traffic to avoid automobile traffic in the driveway. It has also displaced pro-life sidewalk counseling and peaceful prayer vigils.

    I am asking that you reconsider and find a way to leave room for the safety of pedestrian traffic. Find an alternate solution. I know somebody who suggested perhaps a sidewalk along the driveway on the Oakhurst side of the mall would be a better choice. A solution that does not encourage boycotting.

    A win/win solution

    Thank you for your consideration.

    October 16th, 2007 at 2:33 am
  351. CherryRose says:

    Paul2 says:
    Elizabeth,
    Sorry for this post but I have got to hear Cherry Rose respond to this one.

    Reply from Cherry: You apologize when you don't do what Elizabeth tells you to do? Interesting.

    How many of your "fetuses" have you aborted. Or are you too ashamed to say? And where do you draw the line?
    Is late term abortion o.k with you?
    ……………………….
    Reply: It doesn't matter what is okay with me where anyone's unwanted pregnancy is concerned (except my own). I am prefer that each woman remain in charge of her own biological life and that is why I am prochoice. Please define what you mean when you say "late term abortion."
    An individual woman's medical decisions are none of my business or your's. That's the law. That's simple human courtesy.
    I thought I was being ignored. I prefer you ignore me rather than attempt to insult me.

    October 16th, 2007 at 2:51 am
  352. CherryRose says:

    bernice says:
    Satanic cult people, witchcraft people, and Hitler believe in human mutilation (abortion)

    Reply: Hitler was a ProLife Catholic.

    geez, i sure wouldn't want to believe in what those people believe in..abortion comes from the deepest part of hell,,,society accepts abortion for the ignorant fact that it is taught in medical schools,,,ya well satan works through doctors,God have mercy on their souls,,,My sister was told last year by a doctor that she had to get an abortion because the baby was not healthy,,,,she did not listen to the ignorant man,,,in April of this year she gave birth to a beautiful healthy big cheeks sprakling blue eyes blond hair smiling baby boy…..that doctor oughta not pratice.

    Reply: Sue him. What does this have to do with safe and legal abortion?

    October 16th, 2007 at 3:03 am
  353. CherryRose says:

    Paul2 says:
    Blogmaster/sysop:
    FOM misrepresented herself to me on posts 233, 241, and 243. Looking over her other previous posts I see she is also guilty of personal attacks like the one on Becca in post 30. There is no reason good people like Rebecca should have to put up with FOM's abuse.

    Observation: Drama Queen.

    October 16th, 2007 at 3:05 am
  354. CherryRose says:

    Patricia says:
    To everyone who believes that planned parenthood is a solution, please read the following:

    These statistics show that young, unmarried girls have a very high rate of contraception failure.
    As we all know planned parenthood makes 40% of their profits thru abortions, so they are always very happy to welcome these girls back when they become pregnant and are very eager to sell them an abortion.

    Reply: I used Planned Parenthood as a low cost source for basic gynecological care and low cost contraception. I used them for 15 years. No one ever tried to "sell" me an abortion. No abortions were performed at Planned Pareenthood or by Planned Parenthood in Trenton NJ ever. They referred to women's clinics run by doctors for abortion. Planned Parenthood prevented more abortions by providing low cost or free contraception than your orgnaization ever will.
    You missed your calling. You would make an excellent author of bodice rippers. I am told that's very lucrative.

    October 16th, 2007 at 4:02 am
  355. CherryRose says:

    Patricia says:
    To the person who said "we scare you dont we"?
    I can only speak for myself, but yes, evil has always been frightening and always will be.

    Reply: Frank scares you? He's adorable and funny and smart. I know him personally.

    To the person who insinuated that I had an abortion~I thank Jesus that I can proudly say, that is an outright UNTRUTH.

    Reply: You were talking about women's emotional responses to abortion as though you knew for a fact what they are and how it feels to have an abortion. I could go back and get the quote. If you don't want people to think you have had an abortion, you should stop that.

    I would never allow an inncoent human being to be brutally murdered, and I did everything in my power to protect my unborn children.

    Reply: And this has what to do with safe and legal abortion?

    And, now that they are grown and have given us beautiful grandchildren I still do everything I possibly can to protect each of them from all harm and the evils in this world.
    A natural instinct for a mother is protect her children.

    Reply: Post partum depression is a natural result of some women's pregnancies and they kill the child. Arguing from what's "natural" is poor argument. Abortion has been utilized by women to control their reproductive lies for centuries. In countries where abortion is illegal the abortion rates are the same as those in which it is legal. It must be natural to women to do this.

    It is not natural to allow her own flesh and blood to be murdered because she considers it her choice and right.

    Reply: Someone is too uninformed to understand that abortion is not murder, why it is not murder and that it was not murder when it was illegal. You support the lunatic fringe of your movement (that does commit murder) when you tell this unfact. It is no wonder that the PL movement as a whole is on the FBI's watch list when this kind of foolish rhetoric is thrown so blithely about.

    Abortion is legal in our country, but it is a law which is totally immoral and evil.

    Reply: You forgot to add "in my opinion."

    Children are a gift from our creator, these children are ours for a short time here on earth.

    Reply: My children and my ova are not yours. They are mine.

    I believe what we teach them, the values we instill in them, and how we live the 10 commandements is what we will be judged.

    Reply: Many religious folks of all denominations support a woman's right to utilize safe and legal abortion and contraception. This is YOUR opinion.

    October 16th, 2007 at 4:21 am
  356. Ocean says:

    "Patricia says:
    There is nothing on this earth that could possibly rob a woman of her dignity more than abortion. It goes against what God intended for females. When a procedure is done on a person to alter what is natures course, how can anyone believe there arent any physical and even emotional conseqeunces. "

    ******

    Sorry, Patricia, not every woman wants to go through life popping out babies until menopause hits, no matter what prolifers say. For those who don't want to get pregnant, contraception is the best method for preventing unwanted pregnancy. For those who get pregnant because the BC fails and don't want to STAY pregnant, abortion is the best method for terminating an unwanted pregnancy.

    I've yet to come across a prochoicer who has ever said that women MUST have an abortion if they get pregnant. But I've come across hundreds of prolifers who demand that women MUST gestate and give birth, even when some of these women never wanted to get pregnant to begin with, and used contraception to prevent it from happening. Funny how that works.

    October 16th, 2007 at 5:47 am
  357. Ocean says:

    Patricia says:
    "A natural instinct for a mother is protect her children. It is not natural to allow her own flesh and blood to be murdered because she considers it her choice and right."

    ********

    Whether YOU like it or not, not every woman WANTS children or to be a mother. Not every women sees pregnancy as a "blessing," and it is not YOUR place to tell us (women who DON'T want pregnancy) how we "should" be viewing it.

    Patricia says:
    "Abortion is legal in our country, but it is a law which is totally immoral and evil. Children are a gift from our creator, these children are ours for a short time here on earth. I believe what we teach them, the values we instill in them, and how we live the 10 commandements is what we will be judged on.

    ******

    Again, it is NOT your place to tell me what is "immoral and evil" when it comes to matters of sex and reproduction. If some of us DON'T want children (or more kids), it is our business to make that decision, not yours. PP is there to help women obtain low-cost or no-cost contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy, which is far more preferable to abortion. However, NO contraceptive on the market is 100% guaranteed, so it is good to know that abortion remains a legal option if a woman decides against continuing a pregnancy. And if it isn't YOUR pregnancy, it isn't your decision.

    October 16th, 2007 at 5:57 am
  358. Mike says:

    I have been reading many responses my Pro-Aborts that "This Is My Body" and I will do with it as I please. Well this is not necessarily true — what about prostitution, suicide and drug usage.

    I think this is something everyone needs to read. I don't know if non-Christians will understand the underlying message but this is a must read written by Fr. Frank Pavone. It's called "This Is My Body". Here it is…

    ThisIsMyBody.

    October 16th, 2007 at 6:08 am
  359. Ocean says:

    Patricia says:
    "Planned Parenthood and its allies in the sex education business have had conniptions over federal funding for abstinence education. But at least abstinence actually works. If you don’t have sex, you won’t get pregnant. It works every time."

    *****

    Guess what, Patricia; the contraceptive sex acts work every time too! lol You know, the ones that hard-line christians call "sins" because they're all pleasure, no unwanted "consequences?" Why should adults be stuck with abstinence when we don't have to be? Answer; no reason at all. Not everyone chooses missionary as their only form of sexual recreation.

    Patricia says:
    "With contraception, we can absolutely predict that some sexual encounters will result in pregnancy. The young, the poor and the unmarried are the most likely to experience a contraceptive failure. For these groups, pregnancy is not a rare accident, but highly likely. When the inevitable pregnancy occurs, guess who is ready to help solve her problem? That’s right: PLANNED PARENTHOOD WILL SELL HER AN ABORTION. The same people who teach sex education, which increases the demand for purchasing contraception, also sell the “solution” to contraceptive failure, which is abortion."

    ******

    Works for me! ANY way that I can avoid getting pregnant (which is preferable) or staying pregnant (if the preferred method fails) is the better alternative to unwanted pregnancy and birth.

    October 16th, 2007 at 6:10 am
  360. Mike says:

    I am going to post the entire passage from Fr. Pavone's "This Is My Body" because I so strongly believe everyone needs to read this…

    —-

    THIS IS MY BODY

    Did you ever realize that the same four words that were used by the Lord Jesus to save the world are also used by some to promote abortion? "This is my body." The same simple words are spoken from opposite ends of the universe, with meanings that are directly contrary to each other.

    Scripture tells us that on the night before He died to save all people, the Lord Jesus took bread, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to His disciples, saying, "This is My Body, which is given up for you." He was pointing to what would happen the next day, when He would give that same Body on the cross. He sacrifices Himself so that we may live. He gives up His Body so that He can destroy the power of sin and death. As a result, He welcomes us into His life, into His Kingdom. He makes us members of His Body!

    On the other hand, abortion supporters say, "This is my body. So don't interfere with it! It's mine, so I can do what I want, even to the point of killing the life within it. All is secondary to my dominion over my body." In fact one abortion supporter has written, "I say their (pro-lifers') God is worth nothing compared to my body" (Michelle Goldberg, "Rant for Choice," in University of Buffalo student newspaper, 1995).

    "This is my body." Same words, different results. Christ gives His body away so others might live; abortion supporters cling to their own bodies so others might die. In giving His Body, Christ teaches the meaning of love: I sacrifice myself for the good of the other person. Abortion teaches the opposite of love: I sacrifice the other person for the good of myself!

    "This is my body." If, indeed, our body is ours, then let's ask the next question: Why? The answer is so that we can give our body, our life, ourself, away in love to one another and to God. Christ declares, "Do this in memory of me." He calls us to do what He did, and that is precisely how we reverse the dynamic of abortion. Mom and Dad must say to their child, "This is my body, my life, given for you," rather than, "This is my body, my life, so go away!"

    Human happiness and fulfillment are never found by pushing other people out of the way. They are found when we push ourselves out of the way. Pope John Paul II says as much in Evangelium Vitae #51: He who had come "not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mk. 10:45), attains on the cross the heights of love: "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (Jn. 15:13). And he died for us while we were yet sinners (cf. Rom. 5:8).

    In this way Jesus proclaims that life finds its center, its meaning and its fulfillment when it is given up.

    At this point our meditation becomes praise and thanksgiving, and at the same time urges us to imitate Christ and follow in his footsteps (cf. 1 Pt. 2:21).

    We too are called to give our lives for our brothers and sisters, and thus to realize in the fullness of truth the meaning and destiny of our existence.

    "This is my body." It is no accident that the same words are used for such different purposes. A spiritual conflict rages here. We win, in our own lives and in the world, by living these words in self-giving, life-giving love.

    —Fr. Frank Pavone

    October 16th, 2007 at 6:14 am
  361. Ocean says:

    Patricia says:
    "To call contraception, and safe/legal abortion the cornerstones of womens and childrens health is a total mockery. Both of these go against the normal function of a femlaes body."

    ******

    Obviously, YOU have the belief that a woman's sole function is to be a slave to the miseries of constant pregnancies and births "because god says so." I do not. If YOU want to spend your life popping out babies "for god and church," that is YOUR choice. It is not mine.

    Bottom line; PP is there to help women get a variety of health services, including (but not limited to) contraception and abortion. If YOU find PP so offensive, your solution is amazingly simple; DON'T patronize it. Is that really so hard for you and other prolifers to figure out? Dominick's may lose some customers due to the building of the fence, but it won't stop prochoicers from shopping there. Oh, and I shop at Safeway too.

    October 16th, 2007 at 6:24 am
  362. Mike says:

    For those who are "Pro-Choice", I notice all of you bring up the same arguments over and over in support of abortion.

    I would encourage you to read or buy Mark Crutcher's book called "On Message". It gives Pro-Life answers to all the Pro-Choice arguments. It's a thin book and easy to read as well as a great reference guide.

    If both Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choicers read this book, it would eliminate 90-95% of the arguments brought up by both sides you see on blog sites. So please look into it!

    a ProLifeHandbook.

    Mike

    October 16th, 2007 at 6:33 am
  363. kathy says:

    Lovely Lady, dressed in blue
    Teach me how to pray,
    Cause God was just your little boy,
    And you know the way.
    Did you lift Him up sometimes
    gently on your knee?
    Did you tell him stories of the world,
    Like mother did to me?
    And when He fell, did you lift Him up
    and make everything all right?
    I want to know, Lovely Lady, Lovely Lady,
    dressed, dressed in blue.
    God was just your little boy, little boy,
    and you know the truth.
    And did you whisper in his ears sweet lullabies.
    I wanna know, I wanna know, I wanna know—
    did He cry?
    Lovely Lady, dressed in blue
    Oh, won't you please teach me how to pray
    Because God was just your little boy.
    I wanna know, I wanna know, I wanna know.
    Please teach us how to pray!

    October 16th, 2007 at 6:35 am
  364. CherryRose says:

    Mike says:
    I have been reading many responses my Pro-Aborts that "This Is My Body" and I will do with it as I please. Well this is not necessarily true — what about prostitution, suicide and drug usage.

    Reply: John Locke, called the philosopher of the American Revolution by some, stated, "Every man has a property in his own person and this no one has a right to but himself." I am not into communism. My body is mine.

    I think this is something everyone needs to read. I don't know if non-Christians will understand the underlying message but this is a must read written by Fr. Frank Pavone. It's called "This Is My Body". Here it is…

    ThisIsMyBody.

    Reply: I have read it. About one third of Americans are Catholic and Catholic women make up about one third of the women having abortions nationwide. Looks like they think as much of Pavone as I do.

    October 16th, 2007 at 6:45 am
  365. CherryRose says:

    Mike says:
    For those who are "Pro-Choice", I notice all of you bring up the same arguments over and over in support of abortion.

    I would encourage you to read or buy Mark Crutcher's book called "On Message". It gives Pro-Life answers to all the Pro-Choice arguments. It's a thin book and easy to read as well as a great reference guide.

    If both Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choicers read this book, it would eliminate 90-95% of the arguments brought up by both sides you see on blog sites. So please look into it!

    a ProLifeHandbook.

    Mike

    Reply: You read it and it didn't settle anything for you. You are out there on the street corner making a nuisance of yourself (from my point of view). Ipso facto.

    October 16th, 2007 at 6:47 am
  366. Mike says:

    About one third of Americans are Catholic and Catholic women make up about one third of the women having abortions nationwide. Looks like they think as much of Pavone as I do.

    CherryRose,

    Unfortunately some "Catholics" do not follow their faith. They are fallen-away Catholics. We in the Catholic Community need to do a better job teaching the Catechism to those fallen-away Catholics.

    Our Catechism does state abortion is a serious sin. We as Practicing Catholics have a big job in front of us getting fallen-away Catholic back to practicing their faith.

    For us Catholics, it all starts with going to confession on a regular basis to clean our souls.

    You read it and it didn't settle anything for you. You are out there on the street corner making a nuisance of yourself (from my point of view).

    Our job is to be out there and reach out to others. We are an advocate of the Mother AND her unborn baby. We are there to protect life. Abortion harms women and kills an unborn child.

    Mike

    October 16th, 2007 at 7:05 am
  367. Kirk says:

    CherryRose/Frank says:
    You are out there on the street corner making a nuisance of yourself (from my point of view). Ipso facto.

    Frank you are confusing your two identities. CherryRose is a senior from Philadelphia (or Trenton as the mood may strike you) and doesn't really know too much about street corners in Aurora. Frank, however, is from Chicago (and thinks Bob Griese is god) and has addressed the logistics in Aurora (over and over again)

    October 16th, 2007 at 7:20 am
  368. CherryRose says:

    CherryRose,

    Unfortunately some "Catholics" do not follow their faith. They are fallen-away Catholics. We in the Catholic Community need to do a better job teaching the Catechism to those fallen-away Catholics.

    Reply: They aren't "fallen" anywhere. They are siting in the pews every Sunday. They just don't talk to you about their business. Why would they?

    Our Catechism does state abortion is a serious sin.

    Reply: So what. No one listens. The RCC is on the wrong side of the issues of contraception, abortion and homosexuality. Most folks just ignore the silly stuff and go for the beauty of the Mass.

    We as Practicing Catholics have a big job in front of us getting fallen-away Catholic back to practicing their faith.

    Reply: "Why should any man have power over any other man's faith, seeing that Christ himself is the author of it?" – George Fox. Pride is a sin.

    For us Catholics, it all starts with going to confession on a regular basis to clean our souls.
    Reply: Recovering Catholic here. Spare me the explanations.

    You read it and it didn't settle anything for you. You are out there on the street corner making a nuisance of yourself (from my point of view).

    Our job is to be out there and reach out to others. We are an advocate of the Mother AND her unborn baby. We are there to protect life.

    Reply: Explain how picketing a women's clinic that provides low cost ob/gyn care does that please.

    Abortion harms women

    Reply: Nope, Surgeon General Koop could find no evidence that is true, and he wanted to find it.

    and kills an unborn child.

    Reply: Children are born. With this statment you trivialize the experience of gestation and birth for women. Stop pretending birth always follows every pregnancy. Stop pretending it's instant child.

    October 16th, 2007 at 7:29 am
  369. Real Christian says:

    For all of you who claim that you are not acting as terrorists:

    1.What do you have to say about the fact that people from your group have been known to write down license plate numbers of cars driving into women's healthcare clinics?

    2.What do you think about people from your groups using information gained from license plate numbers to violate the privacy of these people? This includes acquiring these peoples' addresses and phone numbers and taking it upon themselves to show up at their homes or places of employment, send them mail, and call them to "share information and reach out".

    Sometimes it includes demonstrations outside of these peoples' homes and/or places of employment.

    How exactly is that not terrorism? Your aim is to coerce people to bend to your will and you are collecting their personal information and violating their lives to do it.

    Do you not think it invokes terror upon small children to see militant protesters raising a ruckus outside of their home day after day?

    Do you not think it invokes terror upon a person to have to worry about how she will support her family when her boss finally tires of having a spectacle outside of his business? And all because she went to Planned Parenthood for reasons which you are completely unaware?

    Do you think it is okay to infiltrate a person's life in order to coerce them into doing what you want them to do?

    Do you think these sorts of activities are conducive to supporting families?

    Please, I would really like to know what all of you think about these sorts of tactics. If this is not something your group engages in, please say so. Perhaps I am mixing you up with other people. I wouldn't want to make broad generalizations about peoples' behaviors.

    Eric, I have been by the Planned Parenthood site and spoken with the protesters. I live in the community and, like most people, was curious about what was going on over there. That is why I am aware that most of them are from far away communities and many are from a church in Downers Grove.

    Given that fact, I don't think that Dominick's will have a problem with boycotts hurting their business. Why would it matter if people who don't live in the community and don't shop there boycott their store?

    October 16th, 2007 at 7:30 am
  370. Maria says:

    Jason says:
    Maria, you unwittingly provided perfect examples of a relative truth. You may see the sky as blue and the grass as green, but a bumblebee per say will see a very different set of colors.

    Your eyes are able to pick up certain wavelengths and can't pick up others, while other animals can pick up on others but not as the same one as us.

    So no, it isn't necessarily true that it's true that the sky is blue.

    The matter of when life begins is a battle of opinions, not science.

    You need to find a point where it's possible to draw a meaningful moral line.

    Reply–
    Jason, you're not a bumblebee. You're a human being. The sky is blue to you, too. And life begins at conception. That's truth, and that's science. Anyone who tells you it's opinion is a liar or a supreme court justice without a clue.

    October 16th, 2007 at 8:22 am
  371. Jane Celeste says:

    Dear CherryRose,

    Thank you for paying attention to the this Blog where Truth is to be found! I expect Dominick's to erect this sidewalk and pay for it! They've stated in every conversation I've had from corporate on down that the "bean counting lawyers" were worried about liability issues- perhaps you don't realize that Dominicks owns half the street and PP owns the other half.

    Since you're in PA you are not here to see the dangers of this fence. Pedestrians are now forced to walk on this road that is heavy with vehicular traffic. So there is GREATER potential for injury than if we even had a "sliver" of the lot line- which the fence does not even allow for. I think they've opened themselves up to greater liability- and they now lost lots of business!Given the profit margin for grocery chains is already low- ths will unfortunately impact their bottom line.

    As for the Fertility clinics- we are not at all in favor of them, because there too life is "discarded" so callously. Much of our charity is in educating people. We provide "infertility" ministies in our parishes and expose the Truths about this assault on these potential lives captive in petri dishes..not to mention all the "selective reductions" done when "too many eggs are fertilized- this is code speak for yet another layer of abortions committed by those who visit these fertility clinics. Yes- this is all apart of our Ministry- but I doubt you really care much. People in your camp will do anything to demonize us even if you have half the facts about us or about all the areas we touch upon. Praying outside abortion clinics and exposing the truth about abortion and it's agonizing affects on both mom, dad and baby are certainly important- but when you feel as we do that God is the Creator- and LIFE IS SACRED from conception to Natural Death- you find yourself active in many other areas, too. Perhaps you need to scroll up to read my other post that gives you just a flavor of our charitable involvemnet outside the clinic limelight!

    Thanks for listening none-the-less. I do pray that the Holy Spirit will make you Wise and Holy in all things.

    Blessings-
    Jane

    October 16th, 2007 at 8:23 am
  372. Mary says:

    Dear Real Christian,

    I am not from Downers Grove. I am not from some outlying Community. I live in Aurora and have lived here for many years. The people are from some of the 50+ churches in Auorora, Naperville, Oswego and such near sities. Yes, some have come from far to support our prayers but just some.

    As for the answers to your questions…I apologize if these individuals have frightened you. Its all what PP brings to the arena that does it. I will not stop praying there and neither will FAPP. When PP leaves, we will leave but will continue to pray for you and everyone everyday.

    October 16th, 2007 at 8:24 am
  373. Ramir San Diego says:

    "Abortion harms women

    Reply: Nope, Surgeon General Koop could find no evidence that is true, and he wanted to find it."

    ============================================

    Surgeon General must not have been looking hard enough:

    ———————————————-
    Abortion Causes Mental Disorders: New Zealand Study May Require Doctors To Do Fewer Abortions

    Pro-Choice Researcher Says Some Journals Rejected Politically Volatile Findings

    Special to LifeSiteNews.com
    By The Elliot Institute
    February 10, 2006

    A study in New Zealand that tracked approximately 500 women from birth to 25 years of age has confirmed that young women who have abortions subsequently experience elevated rates of suicidal behaviors, depression, substance abuse, anxiety, and other mental problems.

    Most significantly, the researchers–led by Professor David M. Fergusson, who is the director of the longitudinal Christchurch Health and Development Study–found that the higher rate of subsequent mental problems could not be explained by any pre-pregnancy differences in mental health, which had been regularly evaluated over the course of the 25- year study.

    FINDINGS SURPRISE PRO-CHOICE RESEARCHERS

    According to Fergusson, the researchers had undertaken the study anticipating that they would be able to confirm the view that any problems found after abortion would be traceable to mental health problems that had existed before the abortion. At first glance, it appeared that their data would confirm this hypothesis. The data showed that women who became pregnant before age 25 were more likely to have experienced family dysfunction and adjustment problems, were more likely to have left home at a young age, and were more likely to have entered a cohabiting relationship.

    However, when these and many other factors were taken into account, the findings showed that women who had abortions were still significantly more likely to experience mental health problems. Thus, the data contradicted the hypothesis that prior mental illness or other "pre-disposing" factors could explain the differences.

    "We know what people were like before they became pregnant," Fergusson told The New Zealand Herald. "We take into account their social background, education, ethnicity, previous mental health, exposure to sexual abuse, and a whole mass of factors."

    The data persistently pointed toward the politically unwelcome conclusion that abortion may itself be the cause of subsequent mental health problems. So Fergusson presented his results to New Zealand's Abortion Supervisory Committee, which is charged with ensuring that abortions in that country are conducted in accordance with all the legal requirements. According to The New Zealand Herald, the committee told Fergusson that it would be "undesirable to publish the results in their 'unclarified' state."

    Despite his own pro-choice political beliefs, Fergusson responded to the committee with a letter stating that it would be "scientifically irresponsible" to suppress the findings simply because they touched on an explosive political issue.

    In an interview about the findings with an Australian radio host, Fergusson stated: "I remain pro-choice. I am not religious. I am an atheist and a rationalist. The findings did surprise me, but the results appear to be very robust because they persist across a series of disorders and a series of ages. . . . Abortion is a traumatic life event; that is, it involves loss, it involves grief, it involves difficulties. And the trauma may, in fact, predispose people to having mental illness."

    JOURNALS REJECT THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT RESULTS

    The research team of the Christchurch Health and Development Study is used to having its studies on health and human development accepted by the top medical journals on first submission. After all, the collection of data from birth to adulthood of 1,265 children born in Christchurch is one of the most long-running and valuable longitudinal studies in the world. But this study was the first from the experienced research team that touched on the contentious issue of abortion.

    Ferguson said the team "went to four journals, which is very unusual for us — we normally get accepted the first time." Finally, the fourth journal accepted the study for publication.

    Although he still holds a pro-choice view, Fergusson believes women and doctors should not blindly accept the unsupported claim that abortion is generally harmless or beneficial to women. He appears particularly upset by the false assurances of abortion's safety given by the American Psychological Association (APA).

    In a 2005 statement, the APA claimed that "well-designed studies" have found that "the risk of psychological harm is low." In the discussion of their results, Fergusson and his team note that the APA's position paper ignored many key studies showing evidence of abortion's harm and looked only at a selective sample of studies that have serious methodological flaws.

    Fergusson told reporters that "it verges on scandalous that a surgical procedure that is performed on over one in 10 women has been so poorly researched and evaluated, given the debates about the psychological consequences of abortion."

    Following Fergusson's complaints about the selective and misleading nature of the 2005 APA statement, the APA removed the page from their Internet site. The statement can still be found through a web archive service, however.

    STUDY MAY HAVE PROFOUND INFLUENCE ON MEDICINE, LAW, AND POLITICS

    The reaction to the publication of the Christchurch study is heating up the political debate in the United States. The study was introduced into the official record at the senate confirmation hearings for Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito. Also, a U.S. congressional subcommittee chaired by Representative Mark Souder (R-IN) has asked the National Institutes of Health (NIH) to report on what efforts the NIH is undertaking to confirm or refute Fergusson's findings.

    The impact of the study in other countries may be even more profound. According to The New Zealand Herald, the Christchurch study may require doctors in New Zealand to certify far fewer abortions. Approximately 98 percent of abortions in New Zealand are done under a provision in the law that only allows abortion when "the continuance of the pregnancy would result in serious danger (not being danger normally attendant upon childbirth) to the life, or to the physical or mental health, of the woman or girl."

    Doctors performing abortions in Great Britain face a similar legal problem. Indeed, the requirement to justify an abortion is even higher in British law. Doctors there are only supposed to perform abortions when the risks of physical or psychological injury from allowing the pregnancy to continue are "greater than if the pregnancy was terminated."

    According to researcher Dr. David Reardon, who has published more than a dozen studies investigating abortion's impact on women, Fergusson's study reinforces a growing body of literature showing that doctors in New Zealand, Britain and elsewhere face legal and ethical obligations to discourage or refuse contraindicated abortions.

    "Fergusson's study underscores that fact that evidence-based medicine does not support the conjecture that abortion will protect women from 'serious danger' to their mental health," said Reardon. "Instead, the best evidence indicates that abortion is more likely to increase the risk of mental health problems. Physicians who ignore this study may no longer be able to argue that they are acting in good faith and may therefore be in violation of the law."

    "Record-based studies in Finland and the United States have conclusively proven that the risk of women dying in the year following an abortion is significantly higher than the risk of death if the pregnancy is allowed to continue to term," said Reardon, who directs the Elliot Institute, a research organization based in Springfield, Illinois. "So the hypothesis that the physical risks of childbirth surpass the risks associated with abortion is no longer tenable. That means most abortion providers have had to look to mental health advantages to justify abortion over childbirth."

    But Reardon now believes that alternative for recommending abortion no longer passes scientific muster, either.

    "This New Zealand study, with its unsurpassed controls for possible alternative explanations, confirms the findings of several recent studies linking abortion to higher rates of psychiatric hospitalization. depression, generalized anxiety disorder, substance abuse, suicidal tendencies, poor bonding with and parenting of later children, and sleep disorders," he said. "It should inevitably lead to a change in the standard of care offered to women facing problem pregnancies."

    SOME WOMEN MAY BE AT GREATER RISK

    Reardon, a biomedical ethicist, is an advocate of "evidence- based medicine"–a movement in medical training that encourages the questioning of "routine, accepted practices" which have not been proven to be helpful in scientific trials. If one uses the standards applied in evidence-based medicine, Reardon says, one can only conclude that there is insufficient evidence to support the view that abortion is generally beneficial to women. Instead, the opposite appears to be more likely.

    "It is true that the practice of medicine is both an art and a science," Reardon said. "But given the current research, doctors who do an abortion in the hope that it will produce more good than harm for an individual woman can only justify their decisions by reference to the art of medicine, not the science."

    According to Reardon, the best available medical evidence shows that it is easier for a woman to adjust to the birth of an unintended child than it is to adjust to the emotional turmoil caused by an abortion.

    "We are social beings, so it is easier for people to adjust to having a new relationship in one's life than to adjust to the loss of a relationship," he said. "In the context of abortion, adjusting to the loss is especially difficult if there any unresolved feelings of attachment, grief, or guilt."

    By using known risk factors, the women who are at greatest risk of severe reactions to abortion could be easily identified, according to Reardon. If this were done, some women who are at highest risk of negative reactions might opt for childbirth instead of abortion.

    In a recent article published in The Journal of Contemporary Health Law and Policy, Reardon identified approximately 35 studies that had identified statistically validated risk factors that most reliably predict which women are most likely to report negative reactions.

    "Risk factors for maladjustment were first identified in a 1973 study published by Planned Parenthood," Reardon said. "Since that time, numerous other researchers have further advanced our knowledge of the risk factors which should be used to screen women at highest risk. These researchers have routinely recommended that the risk factors should be used by doctors to identify women who would benefit from more counseling, either so they can avoid contraindicated abortions or so they can receive better followup care to help treat negative reactions."

    Feeling pressured by others to consent to the abortion, having moral beliefs that abortion is wrong, or having already developed a strong maternal attachment to the baby are three of the most common risk factors, Reardon says.

    While screening makes sense, Reardon says that in practice, screening for risk factors is rare for two reasons.

    "First, there are aberrations in the law that shield abortion providers from any liability for emotional complications following an abortion," he said. "This loophole means that abortion clinics can save time and money by substituting one- size-fits-all counseling for individualized screening.

    "The second obstacle in the way of screening is ideological. Many abortion providers insist that it is not their job to try to figure out whether an abortion is more likely to hurt than help a particular woman. They see their role as to ensure that any woman who wants an abortion is provided one."

    "This 'buyer beware' mentality is actually inconsistent with medical ethics," Reardon said. "Actually, the ethic governing most abortion providers' services is no different than that of the abortionists: 'If you have the money, we'll do the abortion.' Women deserve better. They deserve to have doctors who act like doctors. That means doctors who will give good medical advice based on the best available evidence as applied to each patient's individual risk profile."

    Fergusson also believes that the same rules that apply to other medical treatments should apply to abortion. "If we were talking about an antibiotic or an asthma risk, and someone reported adverse reactions, people would be advocating further research to evaluate risk," he said in the New Zealand Herald. "I can see no good reason why the same rules don't apply to abortion."

    # # #

    SOURCES:

    David M. Fergusson, L. John Horwood, and Elizabeth M. Ridder, "Abortion in young women and subsequent mental health," Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 47(1): 16-24, 2006. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&a… uids=16405636&query hl=1&itool=pubmed docsum

    Tom Iggulden, "Abortion increases mental health risk: study" AM transcript. http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1540914.htm

    Nick Grimm "Higher risk of mental health problems after abortion: report" Australian Broadcasting Corporation. 03/01/2006 http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1541543.htm

    Ruth Hill, "Abortion Researcher Confounded by Study" New Zealand Herald 1/5/06, http://www.nzherald.co.nz

    APA Briefing Paper on The Impact of Abortion on Women, http://web.archive.org of http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html

    http://web.archive.org/web/20050304001316/http:/www.apa.org/… po/issues/womenabortfacts.html

    Information on studies showing higher death rates after abortion: http://www.afterabortion.info/news/CDCdeathswrong.htm

    ——————————————————————————–

    October 16th, 2007 at 8:33 am
  374. Laura K. says:

    FYI….

    Does anyone have these three e-mail addresses???

    The following addresses had delivery problems:

    Permanent Failure:
    550_5.1.1_:_Recipient_address_rejected:_User_unknown_
    in_relay_recipient_table
    Delivery last attempted at Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:19:31 -0000

    Permanent Failure:
    550_5.1.1_:_Recipient_address_rejected:_User_unknown_in
    _relay_recipient_table
    Delivery last attempted at Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:19:31 -0000

    Permanent Failure:
    550_5.1.1_:_Recipient_address_rejected:_User_unknown
    _in_relay_recipient_table
    Delivery last attempted at Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:19:31 -0000

    October 16th, 2007 at 8:39 am
  375. Laura K. says:

    The following addresses had delivery problems:

    Sorry, it's Winona.Redmon@safeway.com, Steven.Burd@safeway.com, and Robert.Edwards@safeway.com

    All others went through.

    October 16th, 2007 at 8:41 am
  376. Tara says:

    Dear Real Christian,

    I think that there are some misinformation. I am out at PP almost everyday, and the majority of people out there are from Aurora. This will hurt Dominicks, it already has. We were then ones telling people to shop there, because they were neutral and not taking sides. That has changed so should our response. The majority of people in that area do not want an abortion clinic in their back yard.

    As for being terrorists, are you aware that we have been shot at with BB guns, egged, tomatoed, spit on, our cars have been vandalized, we have been verbally and physically assulted, and we have been followed home. We have had drunk people destroy our property. This information doesn't get out because PP and their like doesn't want it to. It shifts the attention back on them. They want people to think we are violent, but we are not!!!!

    I know of no one from our side that has done any of the fore-mentioned. If there are then I apologize. That kind of behavior is unacceptable, and they should be held accountable. But, there is nothing terrorizing about praying. That is what we are being called to do.

    PP had the police tell us we couldn't walk, pray or read our Bibles on their side of the street. PP Is afraid of us becasue they know what they are doing is wrong. They know that by us being out there we are shedding light on what happens in there. And they know we are having an impact. If we were not, they wouldn't be going to such extreme measures.

    Tara

    October 16th, 2007 at 9:11 am
  377. Patricia says:

    The only act of terrorism that is being conducted in the vicinity of Oakhurst and New York Streets is being done to defenseless human beings.

    When a human being is innocent of any crime, and there are those out there that are doing their best to 'get at them' and end their life, it is natural to want to protect them.
    If a mother was beating a child in front of a group of people, who wouldnt jump in to save that child from the abuse?

    Compassion should never be called terrorism, they are not the same.

    Tiny humans are having the skin burned off of their bodies, instruments plunged into the base of their skulls and their brains sucked out. Then they are thrown away like garbage.

    I would call this the worse type of terrorism that has ever been legalized in a so called civilized country.

    Who in their right minds would want this going on in their own neighborhood?

    To the person who cant understand how I know what females are feeling after abortions, I personally have heard and read testimonies from them.
    Go to Priestsforlife.org and read them yourself.

    How can anyone with morals and a conscious not realize that when a female allows a so called Dr. to invade her body and rip her baby from her uterus, that Dr is stripping her of her respect and natural maternal instincts.

    Our society is staging their own civil war right now over abortion.
    One side fights against the cruel unfair death of babies who have every right to life as the rest of us.
    The other side just accepts their death as a right or choice.

    I thank my Creator that I am on the side of life.

    October 16th, 2007 at 9:19 am
  378. Jerry Nickels says:

    Speaking of terror, a question for medical ethicists/professionals: Who can say with absolute certainty that the unborn do not experience horrific pain and terror when undergoing dismemberment during an abortion? Please cite the research that shows this conclusively.

    October 16th, 2007 at 9:31 am
  379. Ocean says:

    Lucia says:
    LIFE IN THE UNITED STATES
    While those on the side of Almighty God and His Blessed Mother try to spread her "peace from Heaven", the forces of evil are meeting with even greater success in their efforts, to draw men into sin and Our Lady said at Fatima Portugal (1917), that "Wars are a punishment from God for sin". Everywhere in this country there has been a tremendous increase in ABORTION, divorces, birth control, inmorality, paganism, materialism, and secularism. Pope Pius XII once said: "The greatets sin of our generation is that it has lost all sense of sin".

    ******

    Awwwwwww….the poor RCC. It has obviously lost much of the influence it used to have in past centuries (terrorist campaigns like THE INQUISITION and the MALLEUS MALEFICARUM or "witches hammer" does a lot to scare people BACK to the church) and now they can no longer use terror and torture like they used to.

    Pope Benny has been complaining about that loss of influence ever since he got elected, and far less people are listening to him. Which is a GOOD thing, of course, for the rest of us who believe in little things like FREEDOM in sexual and reproductive matters.

    October 16th, 2007 at 9:34 am
  380. John says:

    Maria says…

    "Reply–
    Jason, you're not a bumblebee. You're a human being. The sky is blue to you, too. And life begins at conception. That's truth, and that's science. Anyone who tells you it's opinion is a liar or a supreme court justice without a clue."

    What does it mean to be alive?

    I have asked this question repeatedly w/out any response…

    What constitutes being alive…a heart beat, brain functionality…having a soul or spirit?

    The reason why human beings do not stand together is because everyone believes they know the truth…unfortunately not one of us will know the truth until we meet our Maker…for me hopefully in Heaven.

    October 16th, 2007 at 9:35 am
  381. Ocean says:

    Patricia says:
    "Who in their right minds would want this going on in their own neighborhood? To the person who cant understand how I know what females are feeling after abortions, I personally have heard and read testimonies from them. Go to Priestsforlife.org and read them yourself."

    ******

    Sorry, but I prefer the stories of women who are NOT sorry they had an abortion when they felt it was necessary, so I'll skip the priestsforlife propaganda.

    October 16th, 2007 at 9:37 am
  382. John says:

    Post #315

    Paul2 says,

    "John,
    I am glad that your post that you would do away with abortion except in the case of rape and incest was genuine. I am definitely down on that. It just didn't follow logically to me that all of your other posts were against any kind of restriction on abortion"

    First off I would like to say thanks for allowing me to have dialouge w/ you in a respectfull manner. Its more than obvious what a delicate and sensitive topic this is and I do truley appeciate being allowed to discuss in a free and open forum such as this…ok that being said.

    I did say the both above comments that were quoted and I would do away w/ abortion w/ exeption to rape and incest however that is for me only. I do not believe I could ever impose my will and beliefs on other people/women. I am a firm believer to not judge others…that is God's job not mine…

    October 16th, 2007 at 9:45 am
  383. Ocean says:

    Mike says:
    "Our job is to be out there and reach out to others. We are an advocate of the Mother AND her unborn baby. We are there to protect life. Abortion harms women and kills an unborn child."

    If I as a potential client of PP is about to go in, and you try to "reach out" to me and prevent me from entering, going as far as to physically restrain me from doing so, I would be calling the POLICE for assistance.

    Bottom line; it is NONE of your business what I or any other woman does about sex and reproduction. Personally, I use contraception regularly, and have done so for many years. It has never let me down yet. I LOVE PP!

    October 16th, 2007 at 9:49 am
  384. Tara says:

    Jerry,

    If you google "Jean Wright+Fetal Pain", you will find her testimony to Congress. She is an expert in this field. I heard her speak and her pesentation was very convincing, that unborn babies feel pain. Please read. It is to long to cut and paste here.

    PCers want to deny this. They pour tramendous amounts of money to continue to deny that unborn babies are human beings. Science is making it very hard to deny the humanity of the unborn. But you don't need sicence to prove what is so clear!

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:04 am
  385. John says:

    Tara says,

    "She is an expert in this field. I heard her speak and her pesentation was very convincing, that unborn babies feel pain."

    Its as easy as this…does the baby have a fully formed nervous system…then yes it will feel pain. If the nervous system is not formed than there will be no pain. It doesn't take much of an expert for this…just anotomy and physiology 101.

    I apologize for the condinsending tone but I do not believe an expert is needed for this.

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:08 am
  386. Tara says:

    John,

    The simple answer is YES the unborn feel pain. They feel pain much greater then we do.

    The debate is at what part of development do the unborn feel pain. So if you are looking for answers like Jerry, then this would be helpful to read. If you don't want to know, then ignore it.

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:26 am
  387. Erin says:

    Ocean–

    Have you been out to PP in Aurora? If you have, you will see what I saw on Saturday when I was there, people praying and holding (non-graphic) signs. Men and women, teens and children, priests and nuns. These are not violent people. I have never heard of someone jumping out of a picket line to tackle a woman heading in to PP as you have described. Maybe you have heard of an isolated case somewhere else, but it has never happened here.

    Second, this is not about birth control. It is about abortion. You use contraceptives–good for you. I don't care. The VNA, Aunt Martha's, the Kane County Health Dept, Planned Parenthood Express in Naperville, they all hand out contraceptives. Where are the giant protests? Where are the prayer vigils? They aren't there because this is not about contraceptives. Yes, many pro-lifers do not believe in contraceptives and do not want these handed out, but that is NOT why we are protesting PP in Aurora. It is about abortion.

    Now, the question is, why are you dwelling on violent acts and control over your birth control as reasons to support PP? They are not valid, because this entire movement is about abortion. PP wants you to believe it is about other things. They want you to believe that we are violent outside extremists when in reality we are peaceful Aurorans or area residents. PP is manipulating you to maintain your support, and you are buying it. Ask yourself why.

    Erin

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:29 am
  388. John says:

    Tara,

    Please stop getting offended…

    Pain in the human body is only sensed via the nervous system sending messages to the brain. (this is common knowledge)

    If the nervous system is not fully formed then these messages of pain cannot be sent and recieved. Please read about the stages of fetal/baby devolopment w/in the womb.

    Have you ever had a local anesthetic or perhaps been completly anesthetized. You do not feel pain by means of blocking pain receptors in you nervous system. If this nervous system is not formed than how would you feel pain?

    I am not looking for any answers as I have already been educated on the subject. Please do not sling mud its not nice.

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:32 am
  389. Mike says:

    Fetal Pain should not even be an issue here. If somebody were paralyzed we would not say it's OK to kill him/or her because they cannot feel pain. We know killing someone is wrong and immoral no matter if they can feel pain or not. Therefore it should not be an issue.

    Life begins at conception period!

    Mike

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:39 am
  390. John says:

    Mike and anyone else,

    What does it mean to be alive?

    I have asked this question repeatedly w/out any response…

    What constitutes being alive…a heart beat, brain functionality…having a soul or spirit?

    Also Mike you took the conversation that Tara and I were having out of context…I made no such comment of when life begins…please read my posts first. Tara had posted a link about Fetal Pain and I was responding to that topic…that is all.

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:47 am
  391. Tara says:

    John,

    I wasn't trying to mud sling, and apologize if it came out that way. There are plenty of people who want to educate themselves, and reading these articles help. That was my point.

    If you read the article, you'll find that anesthetizing the mother would do very little to stop the unborn baby from feeling pain. You would need to directly anesthetize the baby in order for him or her not to fell the abortion.

    Remember that there are operations being performed on babies inutero and they anesthetize them. So if we are anesthetize them during surgeries, then why would we not do this for them as being compassionate while they are being killed?

    Again I apolofize if it sounded like I was being short. It was unintentional.

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:48 am
  392. Mike says:

    Erin,

    Although I am on the same side as you are in the fight against Planned Parenthood performing SURGICAL ABORTIONS — don't forget hormonal contraception can also cause CHEMICAL ABORTIONS.

    Most people either don't know this or some just don't care but I wanted to make sure I give you that additional information.

    Erin, Thank You for fighting for Life!

    a CanContraceptionCauseEarlyAbortions.

    Mike

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:51 am
  393. John says:

    Tara says,

    "Again I apolofize if it sounded like I was being short. It was unintentional."

    Thats ok no offense taken…its not exactly an easy topic to discuss.

    The only point I was attempting to make was that if a baby/fetus can feel pain or not…it is my understanding that until it has fully developed nervous system that it cannot.

    I am however having problems researching when the nervous system has completey formed and is fully functional.

    And I am not making any comments whether the baby/fetus can or cannot feel and if that justifies or does not justify abortion.

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:56 am
  394. Leviticus Jackson says:

    Jane Celeste,

    1. Thank you for paying attention to the this Blog where Truth is to be found! I expect Dominick's to erect this sidewalk and pay for it! They've stated in every conversation I've had from corporate on down that the "bean counting lawyers" were worried about liability issues- perhaps you don't realize that Dominicks owns half the street and PP owns the other half.
    Since you're in PA you are not here to see the dangers of this fence. Pedestrians are now forced to walk on this road that is heavy with vehicular traffic. So there is GREATER potential for injury than if we even had a "sliver" of the lot line- which the fence does not even allow for. I think they've opened themselves up to greater liability- and they now lost lots of business!Given the profit margin for grocery chains is already low- ths will unfortunately impact their bottom line.

    Please of PLEASE don't insult us by saying now you are concerned for the "safety" of the residents of this fine neighborhood. Where was this talk about a sidewalk before the fence came up? Answer there was none because you didn't care. I wish you had this concern when the man with the horrible photos shows them to little kids. I know you let your daughter see them but many of us don't want PP and don't wan you in our town. So PLEASE spare us the a sidewalk should be there for safety. Dominick's is a business and they were tired of their customers having to see all that and to be honest I was in the store once on Saturday and once on Sunday and I actually had to wait in line at the deli which was nice to see because before the fence you could shoot a cannon off and not hit anybody in there.

    October 16th, 2007 at 10:57 am
  395. Erin says:

    Mike–

    Thanks for that great site. I do know that IUDs and some types of the Pill can prohibit implantation and thus cause an early abortion. I don't believe that women should use these forms of birth control, but I do not think that these could be generally distributed at health centers because they require medical background and prescription.

    But, my point remains the same. PP wants this to be about anything other than abortion, and they will go out of their way to convince their faithful that it is about anything other than abortion. But it is about abortion.

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:02 am
  396. Mike says:

    I don't know if Dominick's was really thinking of what would happen if they placed a fence around their field across from PP.

    To me, all this does is push many of us Pro-Lifers with signs to the entrances of Dominicks, PP and the rest of the businesses there. All it really does is push us out to New York and Eola roads where even more passerbys can see the signs.

    In conclusion, I don't think PP and Dominick's were thinking about what happens next when playing this chess game.

    Mike

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:10 am
  397. Mike says:

    Many Pro-Aborts feel contraception reduces abortion. In a recent previous post I provided a link showing contraception can cause early abortions known as CHEMICAL ABORTIONS.

    I also wanted to post this article which is very good. It's called "Does Contraception Really Prevent Abortion" by HLI's Fr. Tom Euteneuer. Fr. E states reasons when in reality, rather than reducing abortions, contraception actually promotes and increases the numbers of abortions.

    a ReasonsContraceptionIncreasesAbortions!.

    Mike

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:22 am
  398. ProliferfromAurora says:

    You know the Holidays are coming Thanksgiving and Christmas and also winter. Why don't you prolifers go and help the poor and needy that don't have no one for these Holidays and also Jackets and clothes? Pay attention to the most important things in life. You already protested this clinic for 40 days now. I believe it's enough. If you was that Christian you would not beat the Bible and the verses and the Thou shall not murder on someone's head. When a young tirl or woman goes to planned parenthood and gets an abortion their heads are not glued on correctly. They are confused and hurt in a way. You don't know thier situation why they are heading there.
    Like said on another post that this will be a good benfit for Aurora because what I have seen with my old friends I used to hang out with. Plus, there might be someone that needs Birth control for health reasons because she is bleeding for two weeks straight with clumps. Do you want a woman to bleed to death because she can't have birth control and you think it's a sin? Gosh get your life back in order and help those that are alive.

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:23 am
  399. John says:

    Mike,

    Thank you for your response to POST #387…and yes that is sarcasm.

    You were quick to jump into a seperate conversation but not so quick to grace me w/ an answer….

    I'm confused…

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:25 am
  400. ProliferfromAurora says:

    I forgot to add that Dominicks had a right to erect a fence on that properity. For Boycotting this store your saying your not wanting to feed and clean your family. I know there are other stores in the area but, if one store is out of what you need to get and Dmonicks has the item you need then you need to get it at the store.

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:26 am
  401. Steve says:

    # 387 John says:

    Mike and anyone else,

    What does it mean to be alive?

    I have asked this question repeatedly w/out any response…

    What constitutes being alive…a heart beat, brain functionality…having a soul or spirit?

    John, to my understanding, to be alive is to be animated from within. To posses an active principle of animation or growth. A puppet is animated but not alive, the puppeteer is the animating principle of the puppet. Unlike the puppet, a zygote has it's own principle of animation. At the moment of conception the zygote grows and is animated in itself, receiving nourishment and protection from the mother but not it's principle of animation. Please forgive me for this brief definition of life, this thread could become a lengthy discussion all its own but I have to get going.

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:31 am
  402. Elizabeth says:

    Prolifer from aurora,

    Babies are alive too. We're helping them. I am all about helping the homeless, but how about we start with the people who don't have a voice yet or can help themselves? Babies are at risk in the womb with no say. At least a homeless person can go to a soup kitchen to eat or a homeless shelter to sleep. An unborn baby can't run anywhere to protect themselves from their mother and they shouldn't have to. Why don't you get your life back in order and realize they're killing the next generation.

    Elizabeth

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:31 am
  403. Steve says:

    To continue my thought, if you were to ask what is the animating principle of life itself then you would be asking what is the soul, or who is God. But then, that is a discussion of first principles or first act prior to life.

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:45 am
  404. ProliferfromAurora says:

    Elizabeth I understand that I agree with you however, your acting like that those that are having abortions are wanting to kill thier babies and they have no intentions to. There are situations like a meth user or a drug addict or a drunk beating the woman and will cause more harm then good to be in that situations. I am talking about those that don't know what Morals are I am talking about those that don't have no clue what's going on with thier lives. However, I am against those that says I am not ready for a baby I am going to abort.
    I can see your cause but to me we can't save all of those that are aborted.
    What about me that bleeds for two weeks and needs to use Birth control to help it stop? I have a disorder if I don't take the Birth control then I would bleed to death.

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:49 am
  405. John says:

    "What constitutes being alive…a heart beat, brain functionality…having a soul or spirit?"

    Steve – this was my original question…not what is life.

    However if I'm to understand your definition of life it would be cell reproduction? When the cells of the zygote begins to devide…this is the beginning of life?

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:55 am
  406. Eric Scheidler says:

    Why is it that of all movements only of the pro-life movement is it demanded that we solve all other social ills—poverty, hunger, homelessness, war and disease—before we devote our attention to our issue?

    Why aren't anti-war activists derided for not focusing on AIDS? Why are opponents of capital punishment like St. Helen Prejean not attacked for failing to address illiteracy? Why are Head Start volunteers not criticized for ignoring the aged homeless?

    The more than 3,400 unborn babies being killed every day deserve a full time advocate. But why does that bother people so much that they choose to call us hypocrites for not dealing with other social problems, any one of which they would bless us for focusing on with singular attention?

    I'll tell you why: because our concern for the unborn is for them a rebuke. Abortion is the single gravest social injustice in America and millions are complicit either through direct involvement in abortion or through their inaction.

    Our presence merely praying on a sidewalk is a rebuke. It inspires an inner conflict with shame and guilt that too often is transformed into anger with us for being there.

    That inner shame and guilt leads to all kinds of bizarre behavior—such as claiming that holding a picket sign in front of someone's house is morally equivalent to mailing anthrax to government offices or detonating a bomb on a subway train; or screaming about exposing a kid to abortion signs who's in the back seat fast asleep.

    That, anyway, is my psychoanalysis of our more furious opponents. For more on this, I offer again a link to my article "The Myth: Pro-Lifers are Filled with Hate" at the Generations for Life blog.

    And with that, I hereby close comments for this thread—403 is plenty!

    October 16th, 2007 at 11:57 am
  407. Eric says:

    Eric…

    Good job. I really enjoyed it….

    October 24th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
  408. Generations for Life » Blog Archive » Free Speech Rights Under Threat in Aurora says:

    [...] True Ministries. We faced difficult logistics for the talks that closed the Rally, thanks to the hideous fence put up by Dominick's. People were lined up in the strip of grass between the fence and the [...]

    October 29th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
  409. Ted says:

    Ted…

    Are you sure this is correct?…

    December 17th, 2007 at 4:38 am
  410. Pro-Life Hotline » Blog Archive » Aurora Citizens Betrayed by Mayor says:

    [...] a fence on the property that has been used by pro-lifers to demonstrate. See a picture of the fence here. The Battle of Aurora [...]

    December 23rd, 2008 at 9:50 am

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