Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood

Videos from the Press Conference

Posted by JT on Tuesday, October 2nd, 2007

UPDATED 5:00pm Oct 2, 2007. I've posted videos from the press conference, including responses from ALderman Lawrence and Eric Scheidler. Enjoy!

Rick LawrenceRailroaded?!? Aurora City Council Alderman, Rick Lawrence, and Aurora citizen and pro-life leader, Eric Scheidler, respond to Mayor Weisner's surprise press conference to open the Aurora Planned Parenthood abortion clininc on 10/1/07.

Alayne WeingartzHighlights from Mayor Weisner's press conference to open the Aurora Planned Parenthood abortion clininc on 10/1/07 (includes some commentary).

The two videos below are long and still 'raw' as the content has not been edited yet, but it covers much of the press conference:

Mayor WeisnerVideo from Mayor Weisner's Press Conference, 10/1/07. Part 1 of 2.

Video from Mayor Weisner's Press Conference, 10/1/07. Part 2 of 2.

This entry was posted on Tuesday, October 2nd, 2007 at 6:45 am and is filed under Legal and Political, Planned Parenthood, The Media. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

127 Responses to “Videos from the Press Conference”

  1. Jane Celeste Fonner says:

    Dear Fellow Aurorans-

    Today is not a Victory as some have "claimed". What is "victorious" about a company that "deceived" our city and lied on applications because their business practices are so contoversial to any reason-minded person? What is "victorious" about a company that "dismembers" and even "beheads" our innocent babies in the wombs of mothers and then calls it "minor" surgery. What is "victorious" about this company's "perverted" sex ed propaganda that is tooooooo graphic for prisoners, but handed out to kindergarders like candy. There are 500 schools within a 5 mile radius from this PP fortress- Look out District 204- here comes their perverted sex ed program-their book "It's Perfectly Normal" is one of the Top 10 most controversial books on the Libaray Association website.

    What is "victorious" about our Mayor Weisner betraying his constituents and his Alderman at that….

    No as we have been saying all along….when you invite PP into your community you invite and promote EVIL. Yes, we are seeing the fruits of what PP brings into the community and it's only going to get worse. God will not Bless this City of Lights when we allow evil to fester and when our own "Catholic" (not) Mayor endorses a lying and muderous business. We will continue our Prayerful Vigil outside this fortress b/c this City needs our fervent prayers now more than ever.

    Jane Fonner
    Aurora, IL

    October 2nd, 2007 at 8:06 am
  2. Tina says:

    I would have liked to have left someone an email, but couldn't find a place on this website, and was not about to "join the vigil", but needed to voice MY opinion as I received a disturbing postcard in my mail yesterday regarding Planned Parenthood.

    Unfortunately several someone's who aren't very open minded, smart, living in the 21st century (please insert any of these) wrote, edited, published the most ignorant piece of literature I've ever read.

    I don't know who the idiot was that came up with the brilliant idea that teens will have sex because Planned Parenthood is out there, but let me tell you something…teens have been hjaving sex regardless of what p[arents, businesses, movies, magazines, etc have said, done promoted, not promted, etc. for the last 60 years. We'll just use that conservative number for conversation sake. If you truly think that a Planned Parenthood facility makes kids have sex, you are really stupid.

    Second, Planned Parenthood does more than abortions – but you already know that, don't you. Because you aren't really that ignorant. You just want to promote what you want to promote. Let's forget about the part where they help kids ad young adults with birth control. Yes, the promotion of sex…wait! You mean the sex they are already having?!

    Personally I would rather my teen have protected sex, with a condom and birth control. My teen will do it or not do it with or without that organization there…and with or without yours too. Duh.

    Wait a minute…you idiots must not have kids. Or maybe you don't think your kids are doing anything…that's it. You are too busy messing with everyone else's affairs to pay attention to what's really going on with your own. I have great, well informed, morally well-adjusted kids…and sex is still lurking around the corner – because sex is still sex.

    You people are pushy, stupid, stuck in an era of religious bias, violent and hypocritical beyond normal. I hate to tell you but I don't see a lot of Pro-Choice groups sending out dumbass postcards….

    October 2nd, 2007 at 8:22 am
  3. Mike says:

    After connecting all the dots — It really does now appear the fix was in between Aurora Mayor Tom Weisner and Planned Parenthood (10-1-07)….

    http://www.inforumblog.com/

    Mike

    October 2nd, 2007 at 9:27 am
  4. Mike says:

    Drew Mariani will be talking about PP Aurora on his radio show in a few minutes. In Chicago his radio show is on AM 820 and AM 930 or you can listen online . . .

    Mike

    October 2nd, 2007 at 2:12 pm
  5. Katie says:

    My soul weeps today as I feel the child that is within me today move and play. God is so good as to give my husband and myself two very unplanned pregnancies. I am praying that God will continue to give us all the strength to pray and fight. How, I weep for those women who truly don't understand the joy they are missing. Whether it is the first laughter of their child or the joy of an adoptive parent's face upon recieving the greatest gift possible, my heart longs to embrace them and tell them to hold on to life. Thank you to those of you who are on the front lines, for those of you who now clasp your hands in prayer, and for those of you who have chosen blessing of life. God is so good and may you all be blessed tonight.
    sincerely
    Aurora Mommy

    October 2nd, 2007 at 6:19 pm
  6. Patty Pro-Choice says:

    I applaud Planned Parenthood for providing much needed affordable health care for the women of the Aurora area. Abortion is only one of the services offered by the new facility and SHAME ON YOU for imposing your religious fanaticism on others by trying to deny us the right to choose. God spare us the horrors of returning to the days when women sought out back alleys to end pregnancies!

    October 2nd, 2007 at 6:19 pm
  7. Renee says:

    God spare us from the poverty that a child must die so you may live as you wish.

    October 2nd, 2007 at 6:27 pm
  8. MB says:

    "SHAME ON YOU for imposing your religious fanaticism on others by trying to deny us the right to choose."

    Shame on YOU for promoting the slaughter of children!

    October 2nd, 2007 at 6:27 pm
  9. Kathi says:

    Patty Pro-Abort;

    SHAME ON YOU for forceing your way into my neighborhood where you are not wanted, and enforceing your ungodly services on the City of Lights. We don't need or want your clinic, there are plenty of medical services in the area. It's just more of the same lies, lies, lies….

    October 2nd, 2007 at 6:30 pm
  10. Barb says:

    Heaven forbid if any one of you have daughters that end up with an unplanned pregnancy either by accident or by rape! Your daughters will need services like Planned Parenthood that offer many choices – not just abortion – although you are fixated on that! If you ever took the time to talk to one of their counselors you would know that they don't push the choice of abortion. My God is a Forgiving God that Forgives choices like abortion. If you are sinless you can cast the first stone…

    October 2nd, 2007 at 7:30 pm
  11. MB says:

    ^ None of us are sinless, but we can still know the difference between right and wrong!

    October 2nd, 2007 at 7:45 pm
  12. Kathi says:

    Barb,

    Planned Parenthood doesn't really see adoption as a viable alternative to pregnancey. That's why this clinic has 13 recovery rooms. (That's more than many hospitals.) Now unless you beleive they are doing surgery for say ovarian cancer, or breast cancer, I'd say thoes are for women who have just had abortions. Now, I've been alive along time, I've known women damaged by abortion, I've known women who have given babies up for adoption. I've never known any woman that was raped and gotten pregnant. If we need thirteen recovery rooms for that, I'd say pregnancey isn't Auroras biggest problem. Check our cities police records, oh yea, we don't have a really big problem with rape. So why is Planned Parenthood here? They weren't invited. My god is a forgiving God too, there is no sin bigger than God, on that we can agree. Oh, I just got a flash, Trombley was just on TV, he said something about illegals needing medical care. Could it be Planned Parenthood has set up shop in Aurora because of our large Mexican population? How diabolical is that?

    October 2nd, 2007 at 8:17 pm
  13. Dan says:

    I hate to cast aspersions, but Trombley???
    Only a man who has no chance at fathering a child would be apart of the destruction of so many children. By no chance, I mean by choice.
    Read between the lines, I am not trying to be anal, just voice my observation.
    Not to mention he is more robotic and unemotional as the wooden algore from 2000.
    As for Patty, there is too much shame in the abortion business. Don't give me 10% bull, Have you ever watched a baseball game, clearly they are only playing 10% of the time and yet that is why people come and they get paid. Either there was some creative time accounting or Planned Parenthood Eugenics Doctors are more efficient at pulling live babies from their Mothers.
    Responsibility by Men and Women should be excersised when experimenting, avoiding or encountering sexuality. Abortion is NOT birth control.

    October 2nd, 2007 at 9:34 pm
  14. Paul2 says:

    A reading from the holy Gospel according to Matthew
    The disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the Kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.

    See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father."

    October 2nd, 2007 at 9:44 pm
  15. Roger says:

    Dan,

    I can appreciate your passion for this issue, but please let's not bash an individual person, no matter how much we dislike the person.

    Thanks,
    Roger

    October 2nd, 2007 at 9:48 pm
  16. kristin says:

    The only solace I have in this whole thing is that God will be the judge of every man in the end.

    October 3rd, 2007 at 7:56 am
  17. Jeff E says:

    > The only solace I have in this whole thing…

    Let's not forget that there is still room for a LOT of hope, and need for a LOT of prayers! First, pro-life lawyers anticipated something like this from the mayor, and submitted their lawsuit the next day. The clinic IS open but we have a very strong case in the courts to demand that the laws of Aurora be followed so citizens and the city council can be included in the decision.

    And regardless of the outcome of upcoming legal battles, we HAVE made a huge impact on the local PP organization AND on a national level! They completely underestimated us, and as a result the clinic was closed for weeks (a small miracle we never expected 2 months ago) and it alerted the country to their tactics. I am positive that even with the clinic open, the entire thing has still been a nightmare for Planned Parenthood.

    And now that the clinic IS open, they will probably underestimate us again. They likely expect us to go home and consider the case over… which is the exact opposite of what we need to do. Now that Planned Parenthood is gloating with their "hate to say we told you so" message, I personally am more motivated than ever to keep up the fight against PP in Aurora! We knew the battle in Aurora was going to take all of our energy, time, and patience… and we knew this battle would include some counter-attacks and “victories” for PP… the last thing we want is to ease up now while the issue is still in doubt. We have thousands of local supporters and the Truth on our side… that’s all we need to continue to do miracles.

    It is always worthwhile for us to fight for the unborn, for the pregnant mothers, and for the fathers… but this is especially true in Aurora, where so much attention is now focused. The struggle to close the clinic is FAR from over… PP underestimated us once and it caught them by surprise… let's be sure to surprise them again by staying strong, praying hard, and letting our voices be heard!

    October 3rd, 2007 at 10:55 am
  18. Kay says:

    Each side can blame each other and say shame on you. However, if Planned parenthood would offer more services to prevent pregnancys like abstane from sex or something in that nature. We wouldn't be in this mess of Abortion.

    October 3rd, 2007 at 12:19 pm
  19. Kathi says:

    Jeff E.

    Thanks for that. You are 100% right. What the Beacon News refuses to report is that the handfull of Planned Parenthood suppoters that show up for any of the news events are not really supporters but are employees of Planned Parenthood. They have a hard time reporting the ratio correctly. So they tend to ignore the mob against the handful. The mob isn't getting paid to be there. I think we will be around for a long time.

    October 3rd, 2007 at 12:52 pm
  20. Tricia says:

    Jeff E.

    Thank you for your great words of encouragement! I totally agree! I think that this clinic's opening has served to bring people together in prayer and gathering. What an outpouring of love and support by the Pro-Life community!! It seems that Planned Parenthood has caught the country's attention, and reignited the issue of respect for life in people's hearts. People are excited to stand up for their Pro-Life beliefs. And what an accomplishment for Pro-Life supporters to keep a multi-million dollar building closed for the time it did! I have hope for the future, and I will continue to pray at home and in Aurora! I look forward to Respect Life Sunday. This is only the beginning! :)

    October 3rd, 2007 at 2:21 pm
  21. Mar says:

    One person brought this up, and I notice that in the rebuttal, it was not addressed: women will get abortions, and if it isn't legal, they will do it somewhere else. Organized crime ran abortion rings pre-Roe v. Wade and many women died or were severely injured. Pro-choicers don't LIKE abortion, but we like women alive. Abortion will happen regardless of a health center in Aurora or anywhere else. I also find it interesting that some are so gung-ho about being "pro-life" but don't protest inadequate schools, inadequate health care for children, etc. Does the life of the child matter after it is no longer a fetus? It seems not to be the case. Who has adopted one of these children from a woman who, as you believe, did the right thing and put the baby up for adoption?
    Also, if we were able to teach comprehensive sex education in our schools, abortions would decrease dramatically. But we are too uptight in this coutnry to realize that people have sex, some people don't wait for marriage because for some, marriage isn't what they want in life. This whole debate also supposes that everyone is a theist and thus moved by biblical references and quips. We don't all want to be married, but we are all sexual beings. We don't all believe in any sort of theology, but we all want women safe.
    In the meantime, keep your rosaries off my ovaries. Thanks.

    October 3rd, 2007 at 3:48 pm
  22. Ted says:

    Please cease and desist from sending anymore of your propaganda to my house. If you were truly Christian you would cease spreading all these lies and actually look up how Planned Parenthood helps the community. If you really wanted to prevent abortions you would gladly support the sex education efforts of PP. A planned child is a wanted child. Read Freakonomics also, it does provide firm statistical data that shows that wanted children do become law-abiding adults.

    October 3rd, 2007 at 3:56 pm
  23. Roger says:

    Ted,

    I have a simple sex-ed question for you … When does a woman become pregnant? At what point is she "pregnant"?

    Thanks

    October 3rd, 2007 at 6:04 pm
  24. Roger says:

    Mar says:
    "I also find it interesting that some are so gung-ho about being "pro-life" but don't protest inadequate schools, inadequate health care for children, etc. Does the life of the child matter after it is no longer a fetus?"

    Mar, no, the life of a child does not matter less after begin born. But being born needs to happen before you can fight the "inadequate"nesses of this world. All our rights must be founded upon a right to life (along with liberty and the pursuit of happyness). These are not "religious" values, but moral and American values. What does it matter to a dead "fetus" if schools are inadequate? Our healthcare and schools in the USA are far superior to what most countries in the world have.

    Mar says:
    "Who has adopted one of these children from a woman who, as you believe, did the right thing and put the baby up for adoption?"

    Mar, I know many families that have multiple adopted children. And there are families lined at adoption agencies for newborn children.

    Mar says:
    "Also, if we were able to teach comprehensive sex education in our schools, abortions would decrease dramatically."

    Mar, do you have any evidence to prove this? It seems that even by anecdotal evidence this is not the case. Has not sex-education been more and more taught in our schools? Have the rates of abortions dropped?

    Mar says:
    "keep your rosaries off my ovaries."

    Mar, everyone has some form of "religion", even you. Even PP. Can you ask them to keep their "religion" out of my life? Or would that be asking too much?

    God Bless,
    Roger

    October 3rd, 2007 at 6:17 pm
  25. Kay says:

    Ok I have a question to those that visit that is pro choice. This could be for anyone. How can a child be planned and you have sex anyhow to have children? Having Sex with your partner leads to a pregnancy. If people would keep thier legs closed and thier clothes on and await until Marriage then we wouldn't have to worry about these things called abortions.

    October 3rd, 2007 at 6:40 pm
  26. Kathi says:

    Pro-aborts,

    How do you think the world survived befor Roe v. Wade? Do you think there were 1.6 milliom coat hanger abortions every year? Do you think it is impossible to not have sex? What really silly arguments you have. I've heard everything from we should be protesting the war, to praying in someones neighborhood to prevent gangs, to your latest "inadequate schools argument." Let me break it down for you. We believe every human being no matter what the gestation has a God given right to Life. That is a fundamentl right guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Roe v. Wade is flawed. There is no constitutional right to an abortion. Abortion has solved none of your silly arguments in the last thirty five years. What makes you think it will solve future problems? We have most probable aborted many of our future leaders who may have been able to solve some of your silly aurguments.

    October 3rd, 2007 at 8:36 pm
  27. Phil says:

    "Mar Says:
    Who has adopted one of these children from a woman who, as you believe, did the right thing and put the baby up for adoption?"

    I did! And she's the best little girl in the world.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/329westpark/150373916/

    October 3rd, 2007 at 8:40 pm
  28. Jane Celeste Fonner says:

    "Mar Says:
    Who has adopted one of these children from a woman who, as you believe, did the right thing and put the baby up for adoption?"

    I did too- two baby girls as a matter of fact and we are hoping that another dear and loving birth mother would allow us to open our home and hearts yet again! What a Blessing those dear girls are to us and as a matter of fact they have been praying for their birth mothers every day since they came into our home!!!! We will be forever grateful & prayerful to those mothers who chose Life for their children.

    There may be plenty of "unwanted pregnancies" but there is NEVER an unwanted child!!

    God Bless!
    Jane

    October 3rd, 2007 at 8:48 pm
  29. Roger says:

    Phil,

    Great picture! Thanks for posting the link!

    God Bless,
    Roger

    October 3rd, 2007 at 9:30 pm
  30. Erin says:

    "If you were truly Christian you would cease spreading all these lies and actually look up how Planned Parenthood helps the community. If you really wanted to prevent abortions you would gladly support the sex education efforts of PP. A planned child is a wanted child."

    1) Please look up the services provided by the VNA and Aunt Martha's in Aurora. Cervical cancer screening, pap tests, pelvic exams, STD testing, mammograms, breast examns, pre-natal care, labor coaches, and a myriad of other health care options for men, women, and families all at sliding scale cost or free. Do your homework before you get all righteous at me, please.

    2) Sex ed in schools has only been increasing in the last 35 years. Are abortions decreasing? Are STDs decreasing?If you were truly Christian you would cease spreading all these lies and actually look up how Planned Parenthood helps the community. If you really wanted to prevent abortions you would gladly support the sex education efforts of PP. A planned child is a wanted child. Read

    3) When I "planned" to have children, I could not. I turned to adoption, and am the happy mother of a little girl who was not "planned" by her birthmom. I then found out that I was pregnant, which was certainly not "planned." Families can't always be planned–but that doesn't mean children aren't wanted.

    Erin

    October 3rd, 2007 at 10:13 pm
  31. Rebecca says:

    The language used by PP supporters on this site makes obvious how fundamental respect for the value, dignity and worth of each person is missing on-the pro-abortion side.

    It is eye-opening to read posts abusive name calling phrases so commonly left here.

    But I am grateful to these people who have left these posts, people who have called us "idiots" and worse- grateful for their honesty in admitting so openly
    the true states of their souls.

    I used to be pro-abortion. I know how much pain and fear underlies this language.

    I pray that God will send His choicest blessings to each person who leaves a vitriolic post on this site. I pray especially for the blessings of peace, joy, and a personal knowledge of the Mericful Providence of God.

    "He who has begun a good work will be faithful to complete it in you."

    October 4th, 2007 at 5:57 am
  32. Eric Scheidler says:

    I left these comments on a previous thread, but the same issues have been raised here too:

    About the postcards:

    We sent postcards to every residence in Aurora and Naperville—you're not on "our list" just because we sent you a postcard. The U.S. Postal Service does not require us—or anyone—to get "permission" from the addressee before sending a piece of mail.

    We've received a few nasty e-mails calling the postcard "propaganda" and declaring that it is "full of lies," but not one single person has actually tried to establish the falsehood of any one of the statements made on that postcard.

    About the abortion truck:

    Just check out the license plates. I think they're California plates—in any case, that truck isn't from here. I doubt the driver visits this website.

    But if Aurora is going to play host to the nation's largest abortion facility—and allow that not-for-profit abortuary to operate in contradiction to the zoning laws of the city—then we're all going to have to live with the fact that Aurora will be a regular stop for all manner of anti-abortion campaigns from all over the country—like the group from Milwaukee who were out on the street last week.

    The long and short of it:

    With regard to both the postcards and the graphic abortion signs: you don't have some kind of "right" not to be exposed to messages you don't like in the public square.

    On the contrary: the First Amendment guarantees the rights of all citizens to express their opinions in the public square, whether out on the sidewalk or in your mailbox (which is federal property, by the way).

    You can choose to ignore the message, to turn away or toss the postcard in the recycle bin. Or you can choose to oppose that message with a message of your own.

    But to complain about the fact that a message you don't like is being presented is to complain about freedom of speech itself.

    October 4th, 2007 at 6:14 am
  33. Mar says:

    Eric-
    You're right. Free speech is protected. And so is the right to have an abortion.

    October 4th, 2007 at 11:53 am
  34. Phil says:

    Mar-

    Roe v. Wade wasn't the first time the Supreme court mis-ruled (my opinion)(nor I'm sure will it be the last). See Dred Scott v. Sanford and Plessy v. Ferguson as examples where the court later reversed it's position.

    Dred Scott is particularly instructive as it dealt a blow to the basic human right of freedom in favor of the "property rights" of the slave owner.

    October 4th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
  35. Paul says:

    To Jane:

    God bless you and thank you for your posts, which I agree with 100% in essence and in the way you presented the truth about life and about abortion.

    And God bless you for adopting your two girls and best wishes on the third child!

    Great proclamation:

    'There may be plenty of "unwanted pregnancies" but there is NEVER an unwanted child!!'

    God love you!

    October 4th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
  36. Sheri says:

    Below is a PP Aurora article found on the Christianity Today website. Please note that it does not quite cover all of the facts such as the alleged civil fraud and the required special permit. I have written the editor at

    cteditor@christianitytoday.com


    BEGINNING OF CT ARTICLE

    October 2, 2007 8:54AM
    Clinical Deception
    Chicago suburb gives Planned Parenthood abortion clinic the go-ahead.

    Stan Guthrie
    Officials of Aurora, Illinois, have given their approval for a massive new abortion clinic run by Planned Parenthood to open today. Yesterday the county states attorney found that PP had committed no criminal wrongdoing despite hiding the true nature and ownership of the $7.5 million facility while applying for a permit. In a report in today's Chicago Tribune, PP supporters were jubilant–and unrepentant about their misdirection–while opponents promised to continue the fight:

    "This is not just a victory for Planned Parenthood, but also a victory for women and families in that area who want access to health care," said Steve Trombley, president and CEO of Planned Parenthood/Chicago Area.

    Opponents said they intend to continue to fight the clinic in court, at the City Council, and with round-the-clock protests and prayer vigils.

    If all this facility provides is health care, I wonder why PP had to resort to stealth tactics to get it approved. What would supporters say if a bar, a casino, or a strip club moved into their neighborhood using such methods? I'll bet they wouldn't be crowing about "access." Posted by Stan Guthrie on October 2, 2007 8:54AM
    END OF CT ARTICLE


    October 4th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
  37. Paul says:

    Trombley is so full of rhetoric and hot air.
    He calls the opening of the baby-killing center a "victory"? Words could not be more ironic or tragic.
    Did he ever really think for a moment they might not open, with his buddy Mayor Thomas Weisner on his side?

    And what kind of victory?
    To be able to slaugher little babies into pieces in their mothers' wombs?

    We won't give up. This battle has only really just begun. There are many legal avenues to be pursued in order to close that killing center.

    October 4th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
  38. Jane Celeste Fonner says:

    Hi All!

    I have been posting blogs on the Beacon Blog Site- Misrepresentation, but no fraud BY DAVE PARRO. I could use a little help. A delightful lady named Elena has many questions and I am limited lately with time to respond.

    Thank you!!
    Jane

    October 4th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
  39. Karen Koller says:

    My heart just sings when I read the wonderful words of people like Jane, Paul and Eric. Abortion (Murder) of an innocent human being (fetus) is intrinsically evil, period! And for those of you who either flunked biology or slept through the lesson on the development of the human fetus in the womb, WAKE UP! The fetus is a separate human being from the moment of conception. It has separate DNA and a separate blood system. DNA is contained within each of the cells of the 23 chromosomes from the mother and 23 chromosomes from the father. When these chromosomes unite at fertilization, everything about the new human being is unique including the DNA, which is unrepeatable ever again in the history of man. People need to stop playing God. And if you don't believe there is a God, you better hope you are 100% right, because if you are not, isn't that a frightening thought. No human being knows everything,only a higher being does and He reveals Himself to us in so many ways, you need the eyes of faith to recognize Him. He who is Light , He who is Love , wants us to start taking responsibility for our actions, stop hurting each other with our selfishness and shortsightedness. Planned Parenthood wants to convince us that they are helping people, but they are trying to play God, deciding who is to live and who is to die, that it is ok to kill a human person growing in the womb because the child is inconvienient, an embarrassment, a burden, or not wanted. Planned Parenthood is much like, dare I say, Satan. And if you don't believe there is a Satan I suggest you watch "Eclipse of Reason" by Adelle Roban Nathanson and Bernard N. Nathanson, M.D. Satan hates us with a passion and tries to convince us that what was once wrong is now right. And by the looks of things he has had much success. If you think abortion is a woman's right you have fallen into a deep hole of deception. Satan wants to suck you into a world of death and darkness under the disguise of a greater good, an easier way. Just like in "The Lord of the Rings" there is darkness and light. God who is Light can not deceive nor be deceived. Also if you think you can compromise with Planned Parenthood, that is on the same lines as trying to bargain with the devil. Abortion is the ultimate child abuse.

    October 4th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
  40. Leah says:

    I've noticed over and over in these blogs that the perpetrators of abortions are limmited to unmarried teenagers with unplanned pregnancies, this is not the case, there are a huge amount of married women with planned pregnancies that have abortions as well. This group have started out joyful of wanted pregnancy and anticipating beautiful, healthy babies. Somewhere in the first few months the doctors find indicators that something might be "wrong". It might be a birth defect, a chromosonal abnomality ( such as downs syndrome) Fearful parents then choose to end that child's life. The obstetrical community urges pregnant moms to have a myriad of tests done to detect "problems" early on. Why do they do this? The stated reason is so the parents can have time to prepare for the special needs child, the reality is so these parents can choose whether or not they want to have this child. The sad fact of the matter is that most choose not to. 20 Weeks into my first pregnancy the doctors started finding things wrong, the baby wasn't growing properly and the marathon of tests and ultrasounds began. At 24 weeks while in the middle of a 4-D ultrasound (which gives really cool pictures of the baby) the doctors started bringing up abortion. Something was wrong and they didn't know what it was,but if I wanted to abort this baby they would change the dates on my chart to make it legal in IL or give me list of states that allowed later term abortions. They gave me a laundry lists of things that could be wrong, everything from still birth to downs syndrome. If my husband and I were different people, maybe in our fear we would have taken that doctor up on his offer and we would have ended the life of this child. A few months later our little boy was born and after a few hours of tests the neonatel specialists declared him perfect. there was nothing wrong with him, he was little but that was it. Now he is an average sized perfect 2 year old. I wonder how many perfect babies are aborted because tests have shown that their might be something wrong, and scared parents don't think that they can handle the frustrations and social stigmas of special needs.

    October 5th, 2007 at 7:54 am
  41. Kay says:

    Leah, I agree with you there No baby should be aborted if it's going to be healthy like that. Sometimes doctors lies to get an abortion because it's all about money and it's about evil. I know I don't like the pictures and all of aborted babies however, these people needs to learn the truth in what abortion is. I don't want illegalize abortion because of the back alley abortions. However, it should be harder to get.
    I am not healthy and i have mental illiness and other problems. If I become pregnant and If I am now the doctors will say to me abort it. I'll tell them to shove Abortion where it don't shine because I don't like killing a life. It's a baby right at conception. God is in control of if the baby will be born healthy or not.
    One of my Church friends I go to church with last year was having an baby pregnancy and the doctor told her a few times it was not going to be healthy. She stayed in the hospital for 88 days. It was breach also and was sceduled to be c sectioned. All of sudden the baby turn around and she was able to wait two weeks to her due date to have her little girl. Guess what!! The baby was Born Healthy.

    October 5th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
  42. Jason says:

    Please never send me another postcard.

    Please never make me feel like I am an inferior person or that my opinion is worthless. In a way that's organized peer pressure against my right to make my own decisions, which is sort of like what you are doing with Planned Parenthood.

    I have a question to ask you: Why would you want to force someone, who is not prepared or willing to raise a child, to complete a pregnancy only to have the child wedged into inhospitable foster homes or raised in a government program? Or if the parents keep the child, only to abuse it and neglect it — is that better than terminating a pregnancy?

    Do you really think Planned Parenthood is like some high-powered abortion assembly line, where third-trimester women are herded on a sleuce, strapped down on a conveyer belt and forced to undergo an abortion? What about the readily-available contraceptives that can prevent not only unwanted pregnancies but drastically limit the spread of STDs? And if you get the Aurora facility to close, what would stop someone from going to the Planned Parenthood in Naperville or Schaumburg or Orland Park or the several in Chicago? What battle are you trying to win? Why, in this land of liberty and freedom of choice, do you want to limit people's chances to make choices that could effect their lives?

    I will never tell you to shut up because I believe dearly in the freedom of speech, but the freedom of speech is just an extension of freedom of choice. I wish you would realize that and find a worthwhile fight to fight. Why not the environment? We could sure use the help.

    October 5th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
  43. Jeff E says:

    A few thoughts…

    > later our little boy was born and after a few
    > hours of tests the neonatel specialists declared
    > him perfect. there was nothing wrong with him,

    Let's please remember that even if he was NOT perfect, his life is just as valuable as anyone else's! I'm a little afraid of examples where doctors suggest abortion for a child that is expected to be "handicapped", and the child ends up being fine. It IS a wonderful thing is the child is healthy, but let's remember that we all deserve to live, even if the child WAS going to be mentally or physically handicapped. We do not live in Nazi Germany… all people, including the handicapped have the same right to life. Killing the "handicapped" is as wrong as killing the healthy.

    Please see the first 30 seconds of this exchange from the recent city council meetings… it really touched my heart when I saw it…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJOLw-kYI6U

    > have the child wedged into inhospitable foster
    > homes or raised in a government program?
    > Or if the parents keep the child, only to
    > abuse it and neglect it — is that better than
    > terminating a pregnancy?

    I would honestly say "yes"! Why are their lives not worth living? And what about their right to choose… choose to lead their lives as the want? I know many people that were raised in abusive homes and in foster care… all are glad to be alive! Please don't choose for them.

    > land of liberty and freedom of choice, do you
    > want to limit people's chances to make choices
    > that could effect their lives?

    No! So please do not limit the lives of the unborn… like you said, give them a chance to make their own choices… we have no right to limit the choices and freedoms of the unborn.

    > Planned Parenthood is like some high-powered
    > abortion assembly line

    Well they are a high-powered assembly line… statistics show the staggering number of abortions done by PP. And 13 recovery rooms in Aurora speaks for itself.

    > where third-trimester women are herded on a sleuce

    While PP promises not to do 3rd trimester abortions in Aurora, why does that matter? Killing someone in their 3rd trimester is just as wrong as kiling someone in their 1st trimester, is just as wrong as kiling someone who is 100, or 30, or 10, or 3 years old.

    October 5th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
  44. Ramir San Diego says:

    "Why would you want to force someone, who is not prepared or willing to raise a child, to complete a pregnancy..?"
    ——–

    Why would anyone who is not prepared or willing or able to raise a child engage in sex…knowing full well that a baby would generally result in such an act?

    October 5th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
  45. Ian Kent says:

    What kind of jail sentences should be handed down to women who have abortion once we succeed in making it illegal?

    Abortions murder, so I think they should all receive life in jail, who's with me?

    October 5th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
  46. Jeff E says:

    > Abortions murder, so I think they should
    > all receive life in jail

    Well you do need to have compassion for women who might make such a terrible choice… but I'm fine with long sentences for the abortion doctors. But I'm glad we agree that is IS murder!

    October 5th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
  47. Ian Kent says:

    Why should we have compassion for someone who commits murder? We don't extend that same leisure to someone who would walk up to you and shoot you on the street, why should we do it to a women who kills her own baby, afar more vile act?

    You could make the argument that while the women doesn't preform the abortion, she doesn't actually commit the murder, but at the very least, it's akin to a women hiring a hitman to kill her husband. Said women would most likely receive life in jail, why are these child killers any different?

    October 5th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
  48. John says:

    "We don't extend that same leisure to someone who would walk up to you and shoot you on the street, why should we do it to a women who kills her own baby, afar more vile act?"

    I didn't realize we can measure the severity of murder?

    October 5th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
  49. Renee says:

    Give it a rest, Ian Kent. We're not taking the bait. We don't want women in jail. We want to help them. Nice try.

    October 5th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
  50. Jeff E says:

    Ian, you being up some excellent points. We do disinguish between different kinds of murder… 1st degreee, 2nd degree, manslaughter… but I would have to think about what would be appropriate for people involved in the crime. For me personally, I feel that the doctors would fall into the 1st degree category once we finally outlaw it.

    Once society finally agrees that is it murder (I'm sure we eventually will.. just like we did with ending slavery and giving women the right to vote), it will be interesting to see how the justice system addresses this.

    For now though, at least we share the common ground that killig the unborn is murder! Let's hope that the understanding of this truth continues to grow in our society… once we qll realize that truth, the details of things like degree of crime/punishment will work itself out.

    October 5th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
  51. Leah says:

    Jeff E., "Let's please remember that even if he was NOT perfect, his life is just as valuable as anyone else's!" Of course you are correct, Each person conceived has the same intrinsic ontological value and right to life, no matter the value society places on them, I was simply sharing my own experience.

    October 5th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
  52. Karen Koller says:

    In reguards to the topic of "If abortion were illegal, should a woman who had an abortion go to jail?"
    If you have laws but there are no consquences to follow, the laws are then, as Captain Jack Sparrow said,… "merely guide lines." Just as a mother or father who disciples his or her child without consequences, will undoubtedly become a broken record without any control over the situation. The woman who aborted her child would have to suffer some sort of punishment under the law. Just like in any court of law there would be a trial where all the facts of the case would be examined. Was this mother emotional or physically threatened to have the illegal abortion? Or was it her own desire to rid herself of her child? All would have to be examined, just as we do in any killing case in a court of law. Also, the other perpetrator, the abortionist, would most likely be uncovered and would also be held accountable under the law, and would be shut down! Making abortion illegal would save millions of lives and we could start again to rebuild a CULTURE OF LIFE, AND COMPASSION AND CARING FOR ONE ANOTHER. A culture of respect for the defenseless, and a culture that thinks about being responsible for one's actions and thinks twice about just "doing it". There is no perfect world but there certainly can be a much better world if we would admit to ourselves that the "higher being", GOD, who is Pro-life, who is the author of life, knows more than we, his creatures do, so humble yourselves and follow Him.

    October 5th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
  53. Karen Koller says:

    " In regard to the topic… " Sorry for the typos and spelling errors, I was rushing to send this out, and my adorable one year old ACTIVE! grandson was sitting on my lap for a while as I was typing. I was also rushing because I need to get a multitude of thing done before going to St. Patrick Church in Yorkville tonight at 7:00pm to see a special guest speaker: Colleen Willard. She is sharing her amazing testimony of God's miraculous intervention in her life through the intercessory prayers of Vicka, one of the visionaries she encountered during her pilgrimage to Medjugorje in Bosnia- Herzegovina. (&* Hope too see sum of u ther! Ha! )=+,:

    October 5th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
  54. Kirk says:

    I posted this on another thread too,
    Kirk
    Democracy For Life of Illinois (DFLI), an affiliate of Democrats for Life of America (DFLA), has scheduled a press conference and initial meeting for October 22, 2007 at the Thelma Keller Conference & Convention Center, 1202 N. Keller Drive, Effingham , IL . The event will begin at 6:00 pm. Featured speaker will be Carol Crossed of Rochester, NY, one of the founders of DFLA.

    The purpose of the meeting is to publicly announce the formation of DFLI and explain its goals and purpose. Presentation of “The Case for Pro-Life Democrats” will be made as well as a brief explanation of DFL’s “95-10 Initiative.” Democrats for Life of America, Inc. is a national organization for pro-life members of the Democratic party founded in the year 2000.

    Democrats for Life of America exists to foster respect for life, from the beginning of life to natural death. This includes, but is not limited to, opposition to abortion, capital punishment, and euthanasia. The goal of DFL is to mobilize Democrats at local, state, and national levels to:

    * elect pro-life Democrats to office
    * support pro-life Democrats while in an elected position
    * promote a pro-life plank in the Democratic Party platform
    * achieve pro-life legislation with the help of national and state pro-life democrats
    * participate actively in Democratic party functions and offices

    All members of DFLI, pro-life Democrat officeholders, candidates, and interested members of the public are invited to attend.

    For questions or more information, contact DFLI President:

    David Seiler
    (217) 342-6882
    dseiler6882@consolidated.net
    http://illinois.democratsforlife.org

    October 5th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
  55. Sally says:

    To those who thank God for life and value the God-given dignity of every human life, let us PRAY and FAST and WAIT upon the Lord who is our strength, our hope, our rock, our fortress, and our life.

    October 5th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
  56. Jane Celeste Fonner says:

    This film may help our 'Pro_choice" frineds change their hearts on this issue……..

    'Lake of Fire' takes camera into abortion clinics

    DIRECTOR Tony Kaye says he was forever changed witnessing the second-trimester abortion. Audiences who see Kaye's new documentary "Lake of Fire" may very well share the British filmmaker's reaction.

    Nearly two decades in the works, "Lake of Fire" is Kaye's epic look at one of the most personal — and sometimes violently contentious — issues of the day: reproductive rights. But rather than fill his 2 1/2 -hour film with nothing but activists, academics and politicians, Kaye goes into the American clinics where the divisive procedures are performed.

    No matter where people stand on the issue, the abortion Kaye presents just 20 minutes into the film will certainly become indelible to many: Concerned that he leave no fragments of an aborted fetus in his patient's uterus, a doctor reassembles the body parts — tiny feet, arms, a head with a clearly discernible face — into a nearly intact whole. And the camera never blinks.

    What sounds like antiabortion agitprop is, in the context of Kaye's film, something very different. "Lake of Fire" is Kaye's attempt to challenge point-blank the lines of reasoning both for and against abortion rights.

    It is "a difficult film," the 55-year-old director says, "a brutally exhausting thing to watch." But as he sees it, "Lake of Fire" had to be that tough: If he didn't show those minuscule body parts, he also couldn't show the photograph of a woman who killed herself trying to end a pregnancy with a coat hanger.

    Documentary film is in the midst of an artistic and box- office renaissance. But Kaye isn't like most documentary directors; his film has no obvious agenda and he's not using it to make a political statement. ThinkFilm, which acquired Kaye's film after it premiered at last year's Toronto International Film Festival, is releasing "Lake of Fire" very slowly, premiering it in New York last week and in Los Angeles on Friday.

    Read more on SpiritDaily.com

    Jane

    October 5th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
  57. Ian Kent says:

    Renee, are you telling me you don't truly believe abortion is murder? Or are they not really killing their own children? I'm honest to god not trying to bait you. What about that guy from oswego from a few months back who killed his kids? Or the woman from naperville 3 years ago that drowned 3 (Or was it 2?) of her children? Did you want to give them counseling and no jail sentence?

    Really, why should women who kill their unborn children receive no punishment other than a stern talking to, while women who kill their children after they're born be strung up in the town square? Is there a difference? If so, what is it?

    October 5th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
  58. Jeff E says:

    > I was simply sharing my own experience.

    Leah,

    I hope it didn't seem like I was calling you out… I've just seen a few posts on that topic, and I wanted to make sure we remember to value all human life. Thanks for backing up what I said AND for sharing your awesome story! :)

    October 5th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
  59. Jeff E says:

    Ian, I do believe that you brought up points that need to be addressed. See Karen's post above… I think it has some good guidelines regarding what kind of factors to consider when determining the "punishment" for those involved with killing an unborn child.

    October 5th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
  60. Phil says:

    "Ian Kent says:

    What kind of jail sentences should be handed down to women who have abortion once we succeed in making it illegal?

    Abortions murder, so I think they should all receive life in jail, who's with me?"

    Hey Ian,

    It sounds a little bit like you might be trolling, but I'll answer honestly. Women who get abortions are scared, they've been thrown for a loop and don't know where to turn. Our society has deceived them into thinking that abortion is a valid choice. Our pro-life response must be to stand beside these women and help them however we can.
    Besides our legal system holds that you can't be accountable to laws passed later.

    October 5th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
  61. Renee says:

    Ian,

    I think that many pro-abortion folks like to see us pro-life folks as judgmental jerks who just want power and control. Trying to dispense jail terms in our imaginations just plays right into their stereotypes.

    In our current culture, very few women who have abortions really give full consideration to the fact that what they are getting rid of is their child. It is a faceless, nameless entity that has caused them fear, desperation or at the very least, inconvenience.

    Most women do not commit their own abortions, therefore their involvement is passive to a degree, and generally there are other people telling them that this is the right thing to do. (In other words, real people tell them it is alright, not voices in their heads from a psychotic break.)

    None of these factors make abortion, in actuality, any less than the death of a person. However, I do not see the culpability of the women who undergoes an abortion as great as one who picks up her child, looks him in the eye, and then puts him underwater in a full bath tub until he is dead. In other words, the grave matter is still the same in both cases, but the full consent of the will can be different, as well as the understanding of the gravity of the matter.

    The abortionist, on the other hand, has seen with his own eyes the reality of the human he just killed. He actually carries out the killing.

    The woman rarely even sees the remains of her child.

    The abortionist disposes of the remains, after reassembling the pieces to make certain they are all out, and then does it again and again and again. For $$.

    I see a clear difference.

    Besides all that, abortion is legal, and carrying on about penalties for women if it was illegal is putting the cart before the horse. My concern really is the culpability of the doctors RIGHT NOW, while abortion is legal, and real deaths of women that have occurred with no legal ramification against the doctor. When abortion was illegal, it was the doctors that were held accountable for women's deaths. Now, no one is.

    We have a much better chance of bringing a baby safely out of his mothers womb by being compassionate and helpful, than by threatening the mother with our judgment.

    I really think discussions like this are entirely counter-productive to the pro-life cause.

    October 5th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
  62. HR says:

    Hi Ian,

    Thanks for your post. Although there is no right "pro-life answer for this," you're certainly going to find very few folks with such an extreme view as your own. We're all about helping women and their children; not hiding in the shadows waiting to nab them.

    I can prove it, too. Clearly a mother's prenatal care for her baby during is the pinnacle of importance. Life is a fragile, especially at its onset. Those who abuse controlled substances or alcohol can do harm to the life inside them. There is no debate to this. However, pro-lifers are not "out to get them," rather, when it occurs, we weep with them and seek to help when we can.

    -HR

    October 5th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
  63. Karen Koller says:

    Phil and Renee bring up some very good points. It is a difficult situation. With the evil of abortion there are two victims, the baby and the mother. Thank you for your words of wisdom.

    October 5th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
  64. Jeff E says:

    I'll second what Karen just said. Thanks for your posts… I apprecaite the honesty, wisdom and charity in your responses.

    Jeff

    October 5th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
  65. Steve says:

    Well put Renee. Thank you.

    October 6th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
  66. Drake says:

    Whenever a Wal-Mart tries to open, you always hear these liberals whining about the "little guy" that Wal-Mart will force out of business… As it happens, there are no less than 5 abortuaries in DuPage County, yet when this massive McClinic opens up, funded by the endless deep pockets of Hollywood and your tax dollars, the liberals start singing a different tune. What about the poor mom and pop abortionists? Who's looking out for them?

    My point, of course, is that PP's services are not needed in any way in this town. Had they been forthcoming, had the citizens of Aurora been given a say, this never would have happened. In North Aurora, a couple dozen regular citizens spoke up and said they didn't want a huge retailer opening in their village. Just as with abortion, discount retailing is also legal, but the PEOPLE had a chance to say yea or nay and the village officials LISTENED.

    I fear that the fix was in, and that the "investigation" was just to provide Pontius Weisner some political cover. He and his cronies knew full well that PP was coming to town and they cooperated in keeping it under wraps. Shameful

    October 7th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
  67. Robert Alfred says:

    I feel I need to bring this to your attention. I was at JCPenny's the other day and noticed they stocked cotton/polyester blends. I think we should take a day off to picket JCPenny's for being flagrantly disobeying Leviticus 19:19

    Remember; All sin is equal in the eye's of god.

    October 8th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
  68. Paul2 says:

    Not so Rob, all sin is not equal in the eyes of God. Matthew 12 31-32 gives special caution not to speak against the Holy Spirit or it will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come.

    October 8th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
  69. Rob says:

    Well that's the single one that's cited to be above all others.

    "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret…" (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV)

    October 8th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
  70. Paul2 says:

    Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.–Matt. 18:20 I also pray at home and outside the clinic at 2a.m. when others are not present. The faithful carry our prayers with us always. We are not there to impress you or anyone else, but to do the works of God by preventing the suffering of women and children who are
    put through that abominable procedure by PP.

    October 8th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
  71. Rob says:

    That passage sounds like it's about church style gatherings, that is, any dwelling can be a church, which I imagine was meaningful during times when Christianity was oppressed. I'm not a biblical scholar, but I get the feeling the passages that followed and proceeded that would support my hypothesis.

    Jesus said his followers should expect to be mocked for their beliefs as they would appear foolish to others, and I can't help but imagine he foresaw that the religion would have times where it would be forced underground, and passages like Matt 18:20 would be heartening to an oppressed people.

    Meanwhile, the verse I cited pretty much calls out people who love to pray in public and get off on being holier than though, and even if you aren't one of them, I have no doubt you no plenty of busy bodies who arrogantly think they know the mind and will of god.

    The anti abortion movement really reeks of insincerity when you read articles like

    http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

    or when you hear the responses of people when they're asked "What punishment should be handed down to women who receive an abortion."

    Or, and I realize this sounds silly, when violence against abortion doctors isn't fully endorsed. If members of the movement really believed abortion in america where really akin to the holocaust, or even murder, I can't help but think there would be much more violent resistance, or at least verbal encouragement from the movement much in the way one would cheer on someone killing auschwitz staff and freeing the jews.

    October 8th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
  72. Renee says:

    Rob,

    Many of your stereotypes of pro-life activists have already been covered in the previous two posts in the comment section. Rather than go over it all again with you, why don't you read them.

    October 8th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
  73. Renee says:

    It's funny, I just read a book about the abolitionist Sojourner Truth. Part of the book describes the pro-slavery crowd's reaction to the anti-slavery activist. A pro-slavery politician denounced anti-slavery Quakers as, "spies, traitors, pacifists and hypocritical money grubbers."

    Sound familiar, Rob?

    October 8th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
  74. Paul2 says:

    You asked, if it is murder, then why don't we testify more to the fact that the abortion mill in Aurora is likened to a Nazi concentration camp. I'm not sure what you mean by that cause I think it's a pretty good analogy.
    You say wonder why we are not violent in our response if we really believe it is such an atrocity. Personally I would not get violent unless it touches me more directly. Legal or not though, if someone performed that procedure on one of my minor daughter without my consent swift punishment would follow. Fortunately for PP they don't need to worry too much about me cause I taught my daughters that abortion is wrong.

    October 8th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
  75. Paul2 says:

    PP is a predator and they know to pick easier prey. The fatherless or the abused and molested.

    October 8th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
  76. Rob says:

    Paul2: That's a classical false equivalencey fallacy if I've ever seen one. Even so, what's more akin to slavery; forcing a women to bare a child for 9 months and deal with the emotional and physical pain that an unwanted child can cause, or allowing them to have a say what happens with their body?

    I may be wrong, but I'd honestly like to think I would have violently opposed the holocaust had I been a german citizen at the time. Easier said then done, but I still would like to think that would be my course of action.

    And really, how is planned parenthood a predator? I fully understand the prolife crowds argument, it's simply a debate about when life begins. However, all they're doing is offering women a choice. They're not abducting pregnant women from the streets of downtown naperville and forcing abortions on them. They're not out in a conversion van enticing pregnant teens in with candy.

    You know it's a strawman, I know it's a strawman.

    And you've just demonstrated why the nonparental consent laws exist. While you threaten violence only against those who would preform the abortion, other parents may become violent against their children or kick them out. These women should be allowed to make these medical decisions with their needs and wants as their primary motivator, not those of others.

    If you really raised your daughter right, and I'm sure you did, should she ever become pregnant, she would seek the council of her parents. If she wouldn't, maybe there's a good reason for that.

    October 8th, 2007 at 11:57 pm
  77. Rob says:

    Sorry, that was Renee who made the comment about abolitionists, not you. These sleeping meds are starting to kick in.

    October 9th, 2007 at 12:13 am
  78. Paul2 says:

    Look up abortion services on their web-site, it makes the point that Illinois is a state w/o parental consent laws and nobody has to know. PP is a predator because they target minors w/o parental consent.

    October 9th, 2007 at 12:40 am
  79. Ted says:

    To the person that asked when does a woman get pregnant: when the fetus attaches to the womb, but not the fallopian tubes. Let me be clear, I am not a fan of abortion. The same way, I do believe that I don't have the right to impose my opinion on another person. I am a strong believer in preventing unwanted pregnancies, since there is more than enough empirical data to support the damage to society that they cause. How do you prevent pregnancies? By providing good sex education to children, and yes I believe that they need to practice abstinence primarily. I also believe that by teaching good sex education to children they learn the importance of abstinence. On the other hand, abstinence or rhythm don't work all the time. Good contraception not only can prevent pregnancies, but also diseases. All my statements can be backed by scientific studies, which I invite the members of this forum to look up on your own. Finally, look up the word: "meme" then ask yourself which ones of your "memes" have a basis on reality and which ones are given to you by people in positions of power to keep you under their control.
    To Eric Scheidler: Thank You for creating this blog, it has helped me crystallize my thoughts.

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:55 am
  80. Mike says:

    I was watching Cal Thomas and Bob Beckel on Hannity & Colmes last night. Cal and Bob are trying to bring conservatives and liberals together on the issues. Cal Thomas (Pro-Life) asked Bob Beckel (Pro-Abortion) this question…

    ———

    Would You Support National Legislation Stating Abortion Clinics MUST Give Free Sonograms/Ultrasounds of the Woman's Unborn Baby Before Performing an Abortion?

    ——–

    The Pro-Abortion Bob Beckel said "Yes"! I thought this was great for both of them to come together on this question.

    The reason Cal Thomas asked this question is he knew 80% of the women who want to get an abortion and later see an ultrasound of their baby, change their mind and keep their baby!

    If this did become national legislation, I would like to see at least a couple of days waiting period between seeing the ultrasound and performing the abortion. The longer the waiting period we could get out of this, the higher the percentage of women would want to keep their baby after seeing the ultrasound!

    Can you imagine saving the lives of 80% of the unborn babies in the womb without trying to overturn Roe v. Wade?

    What are your thoughts? Would other Pro-Aborts support this? Would NOW, NARAL and Planned Parenthood support this?

    My thoughts are if they did not support this, it would be another true marker on where they really stand (just like the "Partial Birth Abortion" marker)!

    ———-

    4D Ultrasound Pictures of Unborn Babies…

    http://www.prolifeamerica.com/4D-Ultrasound-pictures/

    Mike

    October 9th, 2007 at 10:48 am
  81. Rob says:

    Paul; They aren't targeting minors, they're letting minors know their parents don't have to know about it. Unplanned pregnancies, especially for teenagers, can be emotionally devastating. What will their parents/friends/teachers/church/rest of the community think? It's a personal, private decision that no one has to know about and Planned Parenthood is letting girls know that. Again; if your daughter were to get pregnant and get an abortion without letting you know, it's probably because you're a bad parent. All the law does is protect against bad parents and protects the already fragile emotional state of these women. The non parental consent laws are a good thing for many reasons. I already listed a few previously but apparently you've ignored them.

    Mike; I wouldn't support for that. It's already an option that a woman can receive an ultrasound or sonogram at these places. Making it mandatory is forcing someone to undergo a medical procedure, no matter how noninvasive, simply for the purpose of trying to manipulate them through guilt to not get the procedure done. The option for them to receive it is already there. It really serves no purpose other than to attempt to make women feel bad.

    Also; it's not just teenage women who make use of abortions. Married couples do too. No method of birth control, even vasectomies, are infallible.

    October 9th, 2007 at 11:47 am
  82. Renee says:

    If abortion is supposedly such a difficult, painful decision, as most pro-abortion advocates state, why shouldn't a parent be aware that their child has just had to go through such a difficult thing? How can a parent be a responsive parent when such a major happening in their child's life is kept from them?

    Kids keep smoking a drinking from their parents, as well. Is that because the parent's are doing a bad job?

    No.

    You must not have children.

    October 9th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
  83. Mike says:

    Rob,

    The Public Schools have to contact a parent before they can give them aspirin. I don't think its too much to ask for parental consent before they undergo surgery for an abortion.

    As for your comment in regards to making free ultrasounds mandatory in order to reduce abortions by 80% — I can see your true colors are showing. You don't want women to have complete information before making a vital decision and if your not for mandatory ultrasounds, then you can't be for reducing the number of Abortions in America. Very sad Rob — where is your heart?

    Mike

    October 9th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
  84. Erin says:

    Rob–

    I thought PP was all about having women be "fully informed about all of their options." How can women be "fully informed" about their pregnancy if they haven't seen an ultrasound? How can they be fully informed about the impact of this "choice" if they haven't made use of all the technology available. Having an ultrasound just makes sense. You are saying that having an ultrasound could create guilt. Having an ultrasound does not make the pre-born baby a baby. The baby was always a baby. It doesn't change the Truth of the situation. It just shows abortion for what it is.

    October 9th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
  85. Rob says:

    Renee; I have answered that twice already, read my last two post.

    Mike and Erin; True colors? Come on. I said I am not for MANDATORY ultrasounds. If they want to have one, they should. What I was saying is that the sole purpose of making an ultrasound mandatory is to guilt the patient out of having the procedure done or make them feel worse about it, that is unethical. What possible medical purpose could a preabortion ultrasound serve?

    They already provide counseling prior to the abortion, if the woman actually gets to the point where she wants the procedure performed, what is the point of an ultrasound?

    October 9th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
  86. John says:

    Renee,

    "Kids keep smoking a drinking from their parents, as well. Is that because the parent's are doing a bad job?

    No."

    I would have to say that the answer is yes…

    If a child has to lie to thier parents for any reason there is a problem w/ communication. The child is afraid that their parent will no longer love them if they are found out…who's fault is that but the parents?

    October 9th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
  87. Renee says:

    So did PP lie on the permits because they were afraid Aurora wouldn't love them any more? *Snort*

    You guys are silly.

    October 9th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
  88. Mike says:

    Rob,

    Your dancing around the issue. We are saying part of being fully informed is to see an ultrasound of your baby in the womb. These ultrasounds should be mandatory and free of charge.

    By stating you are showing your true colors, I am saying you obviously are fighting women FROM being fully informed.

    Mike

    October 9th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
  89. John says:

    "We are saying part of being fully informed is to see an ultrasound of your baby in the womb. These ultrasounds should be mandatory and free of charge."

    Yes…and they should also be told how they are evil, murderous, cold hearted women. Who will surely burn in hell if they go through w/ the abortion during the mandatory ultrasound.

    But then then still give them the option…c'mon people.

    October 9th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
  90. John says:

    "So did PP lie on the permits because they were afraid Aurora wouldn't love them any more? *Snort*"

    No they lied because they want to make money…God Bless our capitalistic society.

    October 9th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
  91. Renee says:

    "Yes…and they should also be told how they are evil, murderous, cold hearted women. Who will surely burn in hell if they go through w/ the abortion during the mandatory ultrasound."

    No one here has said this. Do NOT try to put these kind of words in our mouths. That is just deceitful!

    October 9th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
  92. John says:

    I'm not being deceitful…I am being a realist. Why else would you show the mother an ultrasound besides guilt?

    Are you trying to say that these women who go to have an abortion do not realize that they are pregnant and have a child inside of them? Is this why they need an ultrasound?…or is it to cause guilt?

    I'm confused…

    October 9th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
  93. Mike says:

    John,

    I am glad to hear a Pro-Abort call a pregnant female "Mother". You are finally using our language. I like it!

    You see, pictures (which help to be fully informed) are already converting you over to the side of Truth/Life and you didn't even know it.

    Mike

    October 9th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
  94. Renee says:

    John,

    It's called informed consent. You should have nothing to fear from that.

    October 9th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
  95. Erin says:

    "Are you trying to say that these women who go to have an abortion do not realize that they are pregnant and have a child inside of them? Is this why they need an ultrasound?"

    Pretty much, yes, this is what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that PP deliberately uses words like "fetus" and "fetal tissue" and "group of cells" and "unwanted pregnancy" and NEVER uses the word "baby." Check their website. Therefore, they are trying to subtly tell women that this is in fact NOT a baby, and they should NOT consider the well-being of this baby in their decision to have an abortion.

    Having a mandatory ultrasound takes this deceitful tactic away from them and tells women the Truth–this is a baby. Abortion is legal, PP will do the abortion for you, most people will never know…but it IS a baby.

    October 9th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
  96. John says:

    Erin,

    So what you are saying is that an Ultrasound will be the answer to ingnorance…

    If a woman does not realize that she is pregnant after having a "prenancy test" aka what is now inside her will become a full grown human being some day…

    then maybe we need to start aborting the adults rather than the fetuses?

    I believe that there are a large percentage of woman who are well aware of the decision they are making w/out the added guilt of a "mandatory ultrasound".

    Imagine a soldier who has been instructed to kill for thier country…and right before they have to murder the enemy (knowing that murdering is wrong) quickly show a flash of that other man's family, his wonderful life, where he lives…ect.

    Sometimes hard decisions (whether they be right or wrong) have to be made…

    How about an optional Ultrasound?

    October 9th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
  97. Renee says:

    Oh John, if soldiers refused to kill each other would that really be so bad?

    October 9th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
  98. John says:

    Of course not Erin, however you are missing my point…the soldiers are already in battle…are faced w/ no option but to kill or be killed…they decide to kill…just as the mother has decided to kill.

    Why would we need to make that process any harder than it already is…for the soldier or the mother?

    October 9th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
  99. Renee says:

    I am not missing your point, John. Your analogy is severely flawed, and therefore your point was simply not effective.

    October 9th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
  100. John says:

    Erin please elaborate…why sling mud when you can grace me w/ your knowledge on how flawed my anology is…

    October 9th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
  101. Erin says:

    John-

    How is the situation comparable? Soldiers know that their job is to destroy the enemy or the enemy will destroy them. It is the painful, terrible nature of war. How is that comparable to someone destroying a life because "it's not the right time" or "it would upset my plans for the future" or even "I can't handle it if this baby has special needs."

    Have you ever had an unplanned pregnancy? Well, I have, and though I was married the timing was very bad. I think I felt what almost all women would feel in that situation–panic and denial. For weeks, I never said "I'm pregnant" I said "I took a pregnancy test and it was positive" (see the difference?) And if you are scared and panicked and in denial of your pregnancy, and someone keeps telling you that this is only "fetal tissue" and that your pregnancy can be easily undone, then maybe you might make a choice based only on that fear and panic and denial. A mandatory ultrasound makes sure that women are not acting out of panic, but out of an informed decision. And it just might be the first step to creating a culture of life in this country.

    October 9th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
  102. Erin says:

    John-

    PS, this is my first reply to your previous statement. You were parleying with Renee, not with me.

    Erin

    October 9th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
  103. Renee says:

    John, I think Erin covered it.

    While many people "choose to kill" as you put it, sometimes the killing is self-defense, sometimes it is homocide, sometimes it is suicide, sometimes it is aborion. They are all tragic, and society should do everything in its power to reduce the instances of all killing. No one would blink an eye at using technology to reduce the amount of any other killing, so why the protest about using ultrasound to reduce abortion?

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
  104. John says:

    Erin,

    I knew you didn't fully understand my analogy…so let me explain.

    If you read my post again you will see that I am making a comparison about two informed people who have already made the decision to kill…One person is the soldier and the other is the well aware fully informed woman. (not the woman who looks at it as just fetal tissue) Killing for both parties is the same…and I hope to never have to imagine how extemeley difficult.

    As a matter of fact I'm sure if you spoke to some war vets that they would probably gladly go through an abortion rather than murder another human being that is looking at them as they died…(i.e. hand to hand combat).

    Now that both have already made their terribly difficult decision why do we need to make that even harder on either of them?

    Again…why not an optional Ultrasound?

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
  105. John says:

    Apologies for addressing the wrong people…

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
  106. Renee says:

    Before such a permanent decision is made, the woman should have the right to know exactly what she is submitting to. In any other surgical procedure, it made clear exactly what will be done to you. When an abortionist has a monetary stake in the procedure, nothing short of a mandatory US would ensure every women is allowed this informed consent.

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
  107. John says:

    Renee,

    "When an abortionist has a monetary stake in the procedure"…

    That is just the problem isn't it…the money. That is one thing I'm sure almost everyone here in this forum would agree w/…PP is definetely a business and that they are trying to make money.

    Unfortunetly I'm still a firm believer that money is the root of all evil. It is what drives us to war, to cheat and steal from our neighboor and even drives our healthcare industy to missleading their patients.

    There are and have been so many drugs and ill advised surgical procudures that have come and gone in the US, all approved by our "all knowing and loving" FDA.

    It would not surprise me that they are slightly missleading at abortion clinics just to make an extra buck…but I'm sure justify it to themselves that all women know exactly what they are doing beforehand.

    I'm sure it is the same w/ geriatric patients in nursing homes who are nothing but a constact supply of cash from their health insurances'. Why not give them another pill that will lead to some other problem that they can subscribe another pill for…

    Ignorance is bliss to the healthcare industry…

    All due to our capitolistic society.

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
  108. Renee says:

    John,

    We are COMPLETE agreement here. "Follow the Money!"

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
  109. Renee says:

    Whoope, I meant

    We are in COMPLETE agreement here. "Follow the Money!"

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
  110. Renee says:

    Sheesh. I think I am done here for the night. I meant Whoops. Good night!

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
  111. Erin says:

    John–

    I still see flaws in your analogy, but no use beating a dead horse. Let's move on.

    The clarion call of the pro-choice movement is "My Body, My Choice." OK. Let's work with that for a minute. If you are going to have a part of YOUR body operated on or removed, you will usually have an x-ray or ultrasound, the doctor will show it to you, and explain exactly what they are going to do. Mandatory ultrasound is consistent with this.

    But, let's say you're on the other side of this (as I am) and you believe that this is an innocent child who deserves a chance to live. An ultrasound gives everyone a chance to be on the same page–to catch their breath and realize what exactly an abortion does.

    Now, I do not see a third side to this. PP and NOW and all other vocal pro-choicers are saying that a woman's body is the only consideration, and the fetus is nothing at all. They fall in Category 1. Pro-lifers are saying that this is a baby, and you need to see that it is a baby. Category 2. Are you saying that there is a 3rd category?

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
  112. John says:

    Erin,

    "If you are going to have a part of YOUR body operated on or removed, you will usually have an x-ray or ultrasound"

    They only do these procedures for diagnostic purposes, not for patient education. There is an acronym that you learn in radiography school…

    ALARA – as low as reasonbly achievable

    This means that they are definetly not exposing patients to x-rays just for educational purposes…as far as sonography goes I'm not sure as I did not go to Ultrasound school…either way I do know as I stated above that Ultrasounds are almost always done for diagnostic purposes.

    "Are you saying that there is a 3rd category?"

    I'm not saying anything of sort. My last post to Renee was me making an attempt to make sure that everyone can come to grips w/ the root of the problem here…MONEY.

    As long as our society, especially our healthcare industry, is driven by money, then miss-information, skewed stats, useless surgeries, misslead abortions will continue.

    October 9th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
  113. Paul2 says:

    Rob,
    You said:
    "Paul; They aren't targeting minors, they're letting minors know their parents don't have to know about it. Unplanned pregnancies, especially for teenagers, can be emotionally devastating. What will their parents/friends/teachers/church/rest of the community think? It's a personal, private decision that no one has to know about and Planned Parenthood is letting girls know that. Again; if your daughter were to get pregnant and get an abortion without letting you know, it's probably because you're a bad parent. All the law does is protect against bad parents and protects the already fragile emotional state of these women. The non parental consent laws are a good thing for many reasons. I already listed a few previously but apparently you've ignored them."

    I was hoping that was just the sleeping meds kicking. Snap out of it please. One minute you are talking about these victims as children and the next you call them women. Society (including PP) should be protecting these victims by exposing the older men who intimidate and abuse them in order to perpetrate the tragedy in the first place. The child may never fully recover unless the perpetrators who took advantage of them are brought to justice.

    Again you wrote:
    "And you've just demonstrated why the nonparental consent laws exist. While you threaten violence only against those who would preform the abortion, other parents may become violent against their children or kick them out. These women should be allowed to make these medical decisions with their needs and wants as their primary motivator, not those of others."

    That is simply absurd. If you can't stop thinking about the minor girls we are talking about as women then you will never understand what I am saying.

    October 9th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
  114. Rob says:

    Semantics, but if it makes you happy, then fine, children. Run it through winword's word filter and change every instance of "women" to "girls". My arguement still stands.

    And who are these older men attempting to intimidate them into getting an abortion? They do offer counseling sessions. Hell, why not get your fellow female protesters to do a sting operation and go in and receive counseling so you and others can see exactly what happens. There is no intimidation. The girls seek these clinics out online or through other services (Ironically when I was a teen the only way I was able to find one was through an antiabortion website that had extensively cataloged clinics that perform abortions).

    Abortion is honestly the only medical procedure I can think of that inspires such extreme reactions from people that can serve to intimidate both women and teenage girls out of having the procedure done. PP does provide emotionally counesling and geniunely cares for their patients. They're OB/GYNs who have elected to provide these services even though it means a cut in their income, constant harrassment from anti choice/prolife/whatever. They enter these markets with great financially loss hate from the community just so your daughers cna receive the serices he offers

    October 9th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
  115. Paul2 says:

    I think you are still completely missing the point. Change every instance of women to cpregnant hildren, or minors and see how if still makes sense. If it does then you may think like a predator too.

    And abortion is not just another medical procedure. You can't really believe that.

    October 10th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
  116. Paul2 says:

    You ask a good question though about who are these older men. PP doesn't care enough to find out and
    their counseling is to stay on contaceptives. My solution would be to resolve the issue more completely by bringing the predator to justice. I guarantee that would bring more peace to these molested children. If they really cared about the rest of these childrens lives then they would not just kill their baby and tell them how they can keep them from getting pregnant again. That is sick.

    October 10th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
  117. Paul2 says:

    And These PP predators because if the parent did find out then the grim reaper might pay a visit to them.

    You expressed yourself that these children coming in for counseling are already in a fragile emotional state when they go in to a PP building. As you said they are worried about things like getting kicked out of their house if their parents find out. PP takes advantage of this and fights for the "right" to keep their pregnancy from their parents. Hiding things, lies and deception are all part of PP's game and ring alarm bells in us as parents.

    PP should know that "most" parents would go balistic if they found out PP had killed their grandchild and put their daughter through that awful procedure. We do not see them as friendly OBGYNs that are worried about our daughters welfare.

    I hope you and enough of the rest of society can put your prejudice against restricting this God-forsaken procedure aside at least long enough to understand that it needs to be restricted in the case of minors. Without this restriction you are welcoming not only violence on the girls and their babies from that barbaric procedure. But also welcoming retribution from the parents, most of whom care more deeply about their children then those "friendly" OBGYNs ever could.

    I don't think it's right but I am willing to wait and try to change the hearts of adults while we figure out how to live with Roe V Wade. But PP has been abusing the Roe V Wade decision since it was passed (not that I think any abortion is good but they went all the way to the Supreme Court and lost trying to keep the right to partial birth abortion…..so evil, just read the clinical description). We need to enlist the help of everybody (including you Rob)to protect our children from these predatory practices.

    October 10th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
  118. Paul2 says:

    And Rob you also said:
    Abortion is honestly the only medical procedure I can think of that inspires such extreme reactions from people that can serve to intimidate both women and teenage girls out of having the procedure done.

    You are correct again Rob. But aren't you just pretending that you don't know the reason for this. It is obviously because abortion is the only "medical procedure" where the purpose id not to heal a person. In fact the goal is exactly the opposite, to take a baby's life. Not to mention the emotional scars and deep regret it often brings upon the patient.

    October 10th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
  119. Paul2 says:

    Hmmmm… I wonder what the definition of a medical procedure is…. Is abortion really a medical procedure? Every other medical procedure I ever heard of was to heal a physical or mental problem. Abortion is more of a savage mangling of the body isn't it?

    October 10th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
  120. Paul2 says:

    Mar from POST 21, I can hear your cry for prayers and I will pray for you, but not for your ovaries.

    October 10th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
  121. John says:

    "Every other medical procedure I ever heard of was to heal a physical or mental problem. Abortion is more of a savage mangling of the body isn't it?"

    What about cosmetic surgery?

    Cosmetic surgery is a medical procedure isn't it…

    October 11th, 2007 at 8:23 am
  122. Ramir San Diego says:

    "I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy."

    These 2 lines are currently OMITTED in the "modern" version of the Hippocratic oath….No wonder why some doctors turn out to be abortionists.

    Ps…Cosmetic procedure IS a medical procedure that physically helps victims of accidents, burns and birth defects…

    October 11th, 2007 at 11:23 am
  123. John says:

    "Ps…Cosmetic procedure IS a medical procedure that physically helps victims of accidents, burns and birth defects…"

    …does that include breast enhancements…nose jobs…tummy tucks…ect, ect, ect.

    October 11th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
  124. Paul2 says:

    John says:
    …does that include breast enhancements…nose jobs…tummy tucks…ect, ect, ect.

    I would say yes. As long as they're purpose is not to kill or injure the subject of the procedure.

    October 11th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
  125. Ted says:

    Ok, I just found out with my own property why PP did not name itself in the permit papers. My mailbox was destroyed just because I had a "Support Planned Parenthood" yard sign. My freedom of speech will not be suppressed. I will now redouble my efforts to support PP. I will find out who destroyed my property and I am going to make sure that the guilty party get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. My yard sign will stay up! I will not be intimidated by people that don't respect my freedoms or my property. I will replace my mailbox, but my hope that I could have a civil discourse with anti-choice people is gone.

    October 14th, 2007 at 10:43 am
  126. Jerry Vilt says:

    RE: #125 10/14/07 "Ted",

    A sure way for a PP employee to get INCREASED SUPPORT for his cause is to find a resident who posts a PP sign and than destroy some property of said resident!

    January 31st, 2010 at 1:26 pm
  127. The League at Ground Zero « Pro-Life Hotline says:

    [...] "Videos from the Press Conference" —FVFAPP website 10-2-07 [...]

    October 16th, 2013 at 3:31 pm

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